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TimTheTinker 2 days ago [-]
Some of the things my wife and I have provided for our kids:
- lots of bookcases with probably >1500 books (including lots of kids/picture books) - what we've collected over the years
- a family laptop (2012 MacBook Pro) with no internet connection, pre-loaded with Pages, Sheets, Affinity Photo/Designer, a few small games, and some coding tools (Python, Ruby, VSCode, Scratch, etc.).
- Lego Spike and Spike Prime robotics learning sets (with software on an iPad, no internet)
- an upright piano (originally for me, but now they're taking lessons; I got it for $700 at a closeout sale at a piano store)
- a MIDI keyboard connected to Pianoteq running on an iPad in single-app mode with a couple of self-powered studio monitors and headphones
- an old-school landline phone connected to a VoIP box, served by UniFi Talk ($10/month).
- Each of them has their own CD player boombox, we have a large collection of CDs
- An iPad with Audible, disconnected from the internet, but with our audio book collection available (over the years, it's gotten into the hundreds of books)
- starting from when they were very young, I've been periodically loading up Cosmic Osmo (CD edition, from an un-stuffed .img file) running on an emulated Quadra 650 in System 7.5.3 on InfiniteMac.org and let them play for an hour or two at a time. This is such a good game for kids - literally black and white (dithered grays), not overstimulating, very thoughtfully built, sparks imagination and curiosity, full of easter eggs.
- some good play equipment and a hammock in the back yard :)
I hope it has been and will be enriching to them.
lubujackson 2 days ago [-]
The CD player is the big hit for my 10ish y.o. kids. Physical ownership and control of music is a huge boost for little kids and really suppirts musical exploration.
canpan 1 days ago [-]
Not only kids. I am an adult, and I also enjoy physical ownership. Physical music (especially LP) sales have been rising yoy since 2020.
jewel 2 days ago [-]
As an alternative to the VoIP phone: Redpocket has a $2.67/mo plan. We loaded that SIM into a small android phone (Unihertz Jelly phone).
It works great as a home phone but has the additional advantage of being able to wander if a pre-cellularized needs to go somewhere. For example, my 13-year-old takes it when going on a long bike-ride with his friends.
We keep it in our closet and only comes out when needed. They aren't allowed to give the number out to friends.
ale42 2 days ago [-]
Well, the point of the landline phone (at least to some parents) is also that it has no screen, and has actual buttons, and stays home... for cell phone, we have prepaid SIM cards that are actually usable (in many EU countries credit doesn't expire and you must just use it every few months to keep them active, not sure about US).
bigiain 1 days ago [-]
That sounds super cool. What age range are your kids, and when do you expect them to start pushing back due to peer pressure from friends playing whatever the equivalent of Roblox or Pokemon is when they get there?
mathgeek 1 days ago [-]
One of the secrets to parenting is that kids will rebel no matter what you do. They will push back on something, and giving in means they will push back on something else. Choosing when and what is the complicated part, because it really is simple that you cannot and should not prevent the rebellion.
AkshayGenius 2 days ago [-]
This sounds very interesting and very much in-line with what I’ve been musing as a soon-to-be father.
One question that comes to my mind is do your kids compare their experiences to their friends? If their friends have access to a laptop with internet, or a music subscription service with all the music constantly available (a la Spotify), do they not compare and ask you why their experiences must be so limited? Why do their friends get to be on iMessage and they just have a landline phone number.
These are the kinds of questions that worry me about how much the kids can truly buy in to this. But maybe I’m overthinking this.
EvanAnderson 1 days ago [-]
Re: the subscription music service
We got my daughter an FM radio when she was around 9. Turns out it's a novelty among her friends and she really enjoys using it. I find local commercial radio insipid but apparently the music they play is acceptable to her. The music on broadcast FM is tame enough that I wasn't worried about subject matter.
sejje 2 days ago [-]
Just tell them the truth, friend. You want to protect them, this is your family's way.
kgwxd 1 days ago [-]
> this is your family's way
Don't say that one. It's creep zone 9000. Respect will be lost. Better off just saying "because I say so."
j45 2 days ago [-]
It can be important to tell kids early that comparisons don't matter, that everyone's diffferent, and that's ok, and every family's different and that's ok.
efskap 1 days ago [-]
Depends on personality I guess. That would be sooo unsatisfying to me. E.g. not wanting to accept that languages have exceptions "just because" is what got me interested in historical linguistics as a young lad.
pixl97 20 hours ago [-]
Yep, we can see a lot of people here have had little experience in raising children. Some will just seem to naturally say "I accept that", and another kid that will be like "f you, I don't do what you tell me" born a year apart and raised in the same household. Nurture can moderate these behaviors, but nature is strong.
j45 19 hours ago [-]
I was more referring to the children that compare themselves to other children, or differences between what they have/are allowed to do and what others can.
It's why I prefaced it with "It can".
Every child is different, but a big impact is every parent who has or hasn't dealt with the normal childhood stuff every parent can have, plus the extra, or latent reactivity can be modelled and passed on.
2 days ago [-]
nkrisc 2 days ago [-]
> an old-school landline phone connected to a VoIP box, served by UniFi Talk ($10/month).
That sounds interesting, going to look into it. My son is old enough to be home alone but I don’t want to get him a cell phone yet, but I don’t want to leave him alone without a phone in case of an emergency. Traditional home phone plans from the usual telecoms are way more expensive than I thought they’d be.
What should I be looking for with regards to a VoIP box? Not even sure what to search for specifically,
TimTheTinker 2 days ago [-]
> What should I be looking for with regards to a VoIP box?
I just bought the one from Ubiquiti. No fuss, works out of the box: https://store.ui.com/us/en/category/managed-voip/products/ut..., though you do need a separate piece of hardware on which to run the UniFi talk app. For me, that was my UniFi gateway (UXG-Max) - I have a lot of UniFi equipment.
There are others that could work - you can look up UniFi Talk supported devices.
nkrisc 2 days ago [-]
Thanks, that makes sense and is simpler than I was thinking. I’ve already got some Unifi gear so should be easy.
ravenstine 2 days ago [-]
I love this! I'm kind of sad that I'm likely beyond the point where I can ever have kids, but what you describe are absolutely the kind of things I'd want to provide them if I'm lucky.
One recommendation I have is a basic 3D printer and OpenSCAD installed on the family laptop. I can see that opening up a lot of added interactivity with other things like the Legos, robotics, etc.
2 days ago [-]
talking517 2 days ago [-]
these are great, thanks for sharing. ive found the tonibox for my youngest (3rd go round) really has helped deescalate tv watching and given us an alternative when they want to watch cartoons.
one question for you; any plans on what you might do when the kids are 15, in highschool and all their friends have iphones?
TimTheTinker 2 days ago [-]
My oldest just turned 15. Here's what I've done:
Gave her a slightly older iPhone and added it to my prepaid plan with AT&T. It's supervised via Apple Configurator, has a password-protected profile created with iMazing Profile Editor.
That profile disables a lot of things - primarily Safari and adding apps. I also have Screen Time set up to block people not in her contacts list - if she wants to add someone, she asks me. I haven't said "no" yet (not that I wouldn't ever).
The idea is less to be restrictive (although that's part of it, for now) and more to give her plausible excuse not to join Instagram/TikTok/whatever - "my dad locked my phone, but you can text or call me". She hates social media, if only from having watched teenagers glued to their phones when she was younger.
I started it in extreme lockdown a couple years ago, and recently lifted a few restrictions. I plan to finally arrive at "no restrictions" by the time she's 17 or so.
It's helped that her mom has zero social media use - she texts, calls, and hangs out in person with people, that's it. I obviously hang out on HN sometimes. (I was on Twitter for a few weeks one time, and my kids complained "dad, what are you doing, get off of social media" :) They also think LLMs are evil, haha
Also -- I told her "you can buy your own laptop if you want" -- and she did. I helped her choose a used MacBook from Swappa.com. It has no internet access, but I gave her a bunch of apps, particularly Scrivener. She is becoming quite a writer (I think up to 15 books now, 2 or 3 are finished). It's quite common to see her tapping away in the living room :)
LiteUser 2 days ago [-]
A few ideas for you:
1. Talk openly and often about how much you hate your phone, how it's addictive, and all the dangers of social media.
2. Consider an Apple Watch with its own cellular plan. This allows them to TXT with friends, call you, and be located in Find Devices.
3. Create a sense of pride in not having a phone. Other parents will openly praise this.
My child doesn't have, and doesn't want a phone. It's been our biggest win as parents.
Litost 23 hours ago [-]
> Talk openly about how much you hate your phone...
The idea of modelling the behaviour you're trying to teach your kids seems to be a key one as mentioned in this interview with Zak Stein [1]. Obviously the general tone might be a bit too much anti-tech for this forum, but he certainly seems to have some well reasoned points to make and obviously the genie isn't going back in the bottle so working with tech whilst being aware of it's dangers as mentioned in the original article might be the best compromise for now?
Not too long ago, I got unreasonably upset at a streaming service forcing me to watch ads on a subscription plan, so I went out and got a Blu-ray player. I've been periodically visiting my used DVD store, and I've been able to STOCK UP on movies for next-to-nothing. While this isn't the most low-tech solution, it's been kinda fun for someone who spent their youth with CDs/DVDs.
TimTheTinker 1 days ago [-]
Old CDs and movies are decently cheap on eBay, but local sales (antique stores, library sales, thrift stores, etc.) can be amazing for stocking up on media in bulk.
jonplackett 2 days ago [-]
Great list! So far I’ve done phones and DVDs but I’m gonna try some of these too.
I would like to also suggest letting them play old adventure games with no audio - my 8yo is deep into Monkey Island 2 original pixelated version
AussieWog93 1 days ago [-]
>an old-school landline phone connected to a VoIP box, served by UniFi Talk ($10/month).
Not sure if things are different where you are, but I'm Australia we use PAYG plans through CrazyTel. You pay per minute, ends up costing us like $1.86/mo for our small business
2 days ago [-]
rustystump 1 days ago [-]
This is such a great list. Screens are bad when they are connected to the internet. Not so much when they arnt.
j45 2 days ago [-]
Emulators are a great idea. Makes me want to 3D Print a mac classic, then put a tablet in it running an emulator with the touchscreen disabled.
Touchscreens can quickly be disracting, finding ways around that are important.
TimTheTinker 2 days ago [-]
Another option: buy a real Mac SE (re-capped), then put a scsi2SD in it with whatever cool stuff you'd like your kids to have on the SD card.
floren 2 days ago [-]
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2 days ago [-]
themanmaran 2 days ago [-]
As someone who grew up in the 90's, I think seeing the live progression of tech was really helpful for my own understanding. For instance we saw:
- CDs moving to Mp3s moving to the ipod and finally streaming
- Games moving from 8bit to early 3d graphics to where they are today
- Family computer moving to laptops and eventually to ipads
- Landlines to early cell phones to the iphone today
All of these experiences helped ground the core principals behind this technology. And the pace of these transformations (while rapid) was still something you could keep up with. Everything was built on the same principals.
But today kids go from zero to iPad + AI generated tiktoks by time they turn 2. Sure parents can try to hide the tech, but it doesn't change the fact that it's out there and available as soon as they enter school.
Maybe I'm overindexing on my childhood, but I would love to recreate some abridged history of this for my kids. I think seeing the building blocks helps build a much more healthy relationship with technology.
coffeefirst 2 days ago [-]
I've been thinking a lot about this.
The desktop that I grew up using was fundamentally a creative machine. It had games, but I mostly used it write fiction and make art-like stuff. When we got the internet it was AIM and movie trailers, so I could go to rent the movie in a store. Then someone introduced me to Webmonkey and the rest is, well, more making stuff.
It really ought to be possible to capture the creative aspects of technology without opening the door to endless toxic slime.
smokel 2 days ago [-]
Most kids that grew up during the timeline you described had no interest in computer architecture. The small minority that did care is probably the same size now.
The other 99% who were into yoyo-ing back then are now into TikTok, that's all.
Swizec 2 days ago [-]
> The other 99% who were into yoyo-ing back then are now into TikTok, that's all.
Hey dude, some of us were yo-yoing while waiting for Gentoo to build from stage 0. Compiling an OS on a single-core Athlon takes time.
For the 3 days it takes to build all the way up to KDE, you have no computer. Hope you didn’t forget something
lucaspiller 19 hours ago [-]
Don't forget the fan controllers to try to make it silent and the neon lights. I still have that machine at my parents house, used it a couple of years ago to rip all my teenage CDs to digital formats.
picofarad 2 days ago [-]
distcc-pump
And, I forget what the toolchain setup is called, but on gentoo its literally just `emerge -1av <toolchain-thing> distcc` on machine with beef and just `emerge -1 distcc` on athlon...
I found out how to do it consistently in 2010 and its like black magic knowing how to target a real OS at BS hardware.
Swizec 2 days ago [-]
I was doing this in 2003 and my computer was also the internet/network router for our house. When that thing was down, you had no access to external information that you didn’t pre-save somewhere.
One time I forgot to install network drivers and had to download them through my flip phone via GPRS and then awkwardly load onto the computer via a clunky USB connection. Fun times.
Also my English wasn’t this good yet. I’m sure it would’ve been a lot easier had I actually understood all the tutorials and documentation fully.
knotimpressed 1 days ago [-]
Some of my least favourite nights and most cherished childhood memories involve troubleshooting broken or missing network drivers the only functional Linux box I had working. Never had to use a flip phone, but sure came close a few times.
Nothing I’d ever willingly re-live if given the chance, but always fun to look back on and grin.
themanmaran 2 days ago [-]
I'd wager that even if you didn't nerd out on computer architecture, just living through progression of CDs -> mp3s -> ipods -> streaming gives kids a better grounding than the iPad is where music comes from they have today
I would argue yoyo is way more healthy than TikTok.
petemill 1 days ago [-]
The difference is more of those people can use local file management than the new generation joining office environments.
techblueberry 2 days ago [-]
I'm starting to lean into something similar - While I understand the danger of nostalgia, and I don't think you can go back. The great thing about living in the current time should be that like, eveything is available. There are people who still choose to be blacksmiths in 2026. My kids and I have been watching the 70s television series "Land of the Lost" and the 70s had some really bonkers childrens programming.
In a weird way, I think the thing the tech companies fear more than abstenance - which kids may ultimately rebel from - is kids who grow up to use these technologies in a healthy way. Kids who grow up without FOMO.
ericd 2 days ago [-]
Yep, with video games, we started with SNES and have been slowly moving higher fidelity. We've got a VOIP landline for the kids, as well as a CD player. It's been working pretty well. For computing, they have a desktop Raspberry Pi 400 running Raspbian, terminal-centric setup.
skydhash 1 days ago [-]
I wouldn’t trade the hours I spent with a group of friends in front of a n64, and a handful of multiplayer games (shooter, fighting, and racing). It was us 4 to 8 kids for 2 controllers. While I play a handful of PC games and have a console, there’s nothing better than a good living room session.
ericd 8 hours ago [-]
Yeah for sure, we've been mostly focused on couch co-op as we've started adding a few Steam games to the rotation - Brotato and Castle Crashers are big favorites, along with the more modern Minecraft Dungeons, a really simple couch co-op action RPG. It's been awesome, the neighbor kids drop by whenever, and it's been making some great memories as they pull through by the skin of their teeth.
Also got an Analogue 3D recently, it's been awesome digging out my old n64 collection and showing them the classics, while still having new controllers without stick slop, and HDMI so I don't have to fiddle with a bunch of converters.
POBIX 1 days ago [-]
I think this is a misguided approach. Obviously children should not be let loose in this current digital world, but the restraints should be a very conservative blacklist, not a whitelist.
For context I was born in 2005, so obviously much later than most people whose childhoods were enriched by technology, but all the same mine was. That is how I know succumbing to the Bad Side of the Internet is not inevitable. As a kid I would spend hours every day on forums, playing games, watching videos, programming, discovering new tech, fiddling with programs, OSs, emulators, hardware, you name it. The most amazing thing about the Internet to me was the infinite possibilities, how any topic I could choose would have endless resources, learning material, and discussions surrounding it. Whenever I got passionate about something, be it programming or space or Android or a band, the Internet was there for me to share that passion with, to learn, grow, explore, embrace, understand!
There still is, in 2026, a Good Side of the Internet (we are currently on it), along the Bad Side. What this post proposes is limiting access to the discovery mechanisms that would allow you to find the Good Side in the first place. By limiting your childrens' access to technology to only things you know are good, you are preventing them from exploring and finding their own interests and passions.
jon-wood 1 days ago [-]
I'm glad I'm not the only person with this approach. We have a 12 year old son and we've never really gone overboard with restricting what he's permitted to do with his free time, if he wants to watch crap on YouTube then fine its his time. What we will do is talk to him about what he's doing, maybe sometimes ask why he's doing it ("hey, you appear to have watched the first 30 seconds of 5 videos in a row, have you considered doing something else?")
We also don't have any hard blocks on internet access, that's also managed via a combination of talking to each other and keeping half an eye on what he's up to. His computer is in a public part of the house, not hidden away upstairs, and anytime I'm passing by I'm going to take a glance at the screen and see what's going on.
Overall I think teaching kids how to do things in moderation, and to consider what they're doing and why, is far healthier than denying them access entirely. You can tell the kids who were never allowed a drop of alcohol in the first week of university - they're the ones who've passed out in a bar, and are being gently guided home by the kids who were given some freedom a bit earlier in an environment where someone's going to step in if they're getting out of hand.
Who knows, maybe he'll grow up to be an absolute monster, and one day I'll look back on this comment and how naive I was, but for now it seems to be working.
picofarad 21 hours ago [-]
What you describe as how I raised my two oldest kids and how I'm raising my youngest who is now 10. The two older ones are productive members of society who have never done a mean thing to anyone in their life.
The only thing I did differently is I completely banned Disney and I didn't really have a TV in the house. A communal display that sometimes had tv shows on it, but my houses have not had televisions since mission accomplished in 2003.
I'm not saying my way is right, or your way is right, or everyone else's way is right or wrong. I'm just saying: me too, man.
ahazred8ta 11 hours ago [-]
Our neighbors put a tv in their little girl's room, but it was rigged to only show the local PBS station. Worked out well.
petemill 1 days ago [-]
I'm currently in the "misguided" group as I parent 3 kids under 10 but I appreciate your viewpoint.
I had similar experience and want my kids to learn that sense that they can accomplish anything by just learning how to do it from others on the internet.
But still, everything today is offered on a platter. There's little resistance to overcome. No installing, no files, no configuration. I think that's what we accomplish by giving the technology step by step, starting with offline machines with CD ROMs. If they can just Google any game ever made and play it in-browser in a JS emulator then where's the learning and the struggle before the reward?
jon-wood 1 days ago [-]
Why does there need to be the same learning and struggle that you went through? Making games has never been more accessible - you can fire up something like Scratch and have things moving almost instantly, then when you're ready for it make the jump to Godot or similar which is still accessible but also has enough power to build commercial games.
There isn't actually any inherent value to knowing how to get through an installer and edit a configuration file in vim. Those are just ancillary skills that people pick up alongside the actual thing they were looking to achieve (in my case it was building stupid websites in PHP). I'm pretty sure there are no end of things that you use without having been forced to learn the fundamentals first - if I take this to absurdity, can you take a pile of sand and turn it into a working CPU? If not, what right do you have to be sitting here using a computer?
estetlinus 1 days ago [-]
I remember my dad trying to make me fall in love with The Beatles. He loved The Beatles. I sat there quietly on the sofa while he got to relive his adolescence. The experience felt less like discovering something together and more like being a prop in someone else’s nostalgia.
I can’t help getting the same feeling from this blog post. “Look at this amazing CD player!” Cool, Dad. I’m genuinely happy for you. Meanwhile, Katie just got an iPhone 17 in her Easter egg. I'm a dad myself, and I dread the moment my daughters find out about TikTok...
TimTheTinker 19 hours ago [-]
> I dread the moment my daughters find out about TikTok...
Tell her yourself. Explain why you hate it. And have something better to offer.
If your family culture is different (and stronger) than the culture around you, you have a decent chance at being able to intentionally shape her character.
That's where books and stories come in -- culture is transmitted primarily through engaging stories. My wife and I inherited reading as a top family practice from our parents, and we're passing it along. Every day we read to the kids ... it's been about 14 years now of that. My daughter in particular was deeply shaped by the book Little Women by Louisa May Alcott - it gave her a aspirative vision for life, particularly as a future wife and mother -- and her vision transcends her family of origin, in a very good way.
> Cool Dad Raising Daughter On Media That Will Put Her Entirely Out Of Touch With Her Generation
> Local man Paul Campbell confirmed Saturday he was raising his daughter Emma on a variety of media carefully selected to help her cultivate an appreciation for artistic quality, a move that will reportedly put the 12-year-old girl hopelessly out of touch with her generation.
estetlinus 20 hours ago [-]
Lol.
> “I definitely feel out of place sometimes,” said Emma, who told reporters she will never forget the blank stares she once received upon mentioning Petula Clark. “It’d be nice to know what everyone’s talking about for a change.”
I can picture the dad lurking in the shadows.
scrappyjoe 2 days ago [-]
I set up a little neighbourhood pbx this year on an oracle cloud always free instance. Took a couple of days.
Any family can buy a WiFi-enabled office phone and I’ll set up an extension for them. It’s working great! My six year old had a 15 minute chat with classmate while we were making dinner today; they have arranged a play date for next Monday.
A couple of weeks ago a 5 year old invented prank calls. Every now and then the phone will ring and we’ll pick up and she’ll sing a a couple of lines out of Frozen before hanging up. It’s made our community much closer.
stronglikedan 2 days ago [-]
Sadly, all the busybodies in my community would make this unbearable, since they'd have direct lines to people instead of having to wait to see them outside to complain to them.
jagged-chisel 1 days ago [-]
I mean, you’re not required to answer. Nor to have the ringer on. Nor to have the phone active …
picofarad 2 days ago [-]
CenturyLink started on somebody's porch.
The original party line was tied together with barbed wire fencing between farms.
I also run a PBX.
and a PBX behind a VPN firewall.
patrickdavey 2 days ago [-]
Can you point to an article on how to do this? This sounds _amazing_
scrappyjoe 1 days ago [-]
Here’s my ansible playbook if you want to give it a go.
That's really cool. Recently I had the fantasy of setting up a PBX here in the house and bringing back "dial up internet" for me and my wife, as a doomscrolling mitigation measure. Probably won't work though, as we each have smartphones plus she wants her streamers to play back full-fat 4K.
jon-wood 1 days ago [-]
You could absolutely set up some traffic shaping on a router which drops social media sites down to 56kbps while allowing Netflix to use as much bandwidth as it needs to stream in 4K.
perilunar 1 days ago [-]
There's an old saying in biology: "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" [1], which is how the developing embryo of an animal (the ontogeny), goes through stages resembling the evolution of the animal (phylogeny).
I sometimes think that would also be a great way to educate kids when it comes to technology. Start them with simple old tech (sticks, stones, string, camp fires) and gradually add new tech over time, so that by the time they are adults they have a basic knowledge and familiarity with a wide range of technology, not just the current stuff they are surrounded by.
They should know tech well by soph/junior year of high school or you do a disservice to them
japhyr 2 days ago [-]
This is great, but it's also easy to go too far in this direction. This can work through elementary school and into middle school, but I don't think it works in high school.
It's really hard to be a high school student without your own phone. I know some people who have kept their kids from having phones into high school. It avoids some of the addictive and distracting issues that come from having phones at a young age, but it's way more isolating than people realize. You might have a landline, but if no other high school age people are making voice calls to communicate, no one's going to call that landline. And the landline at home doesn't help you coordinate pickups and drop-offs as people start to do a wider variety of activities.
We have plenty of conflict in our home around devices, so I don't criticize any particular approaches. I'd just say that if you're taking this approach, it's probably a good idea to figure out how you're going to transition to kids having devices as they get into their high school years.
masterj 2 days ago [-]
Protecting your kids from dopamine-drip algorithms and the effects of social media and short-form video during their most formative years and gradually letting them take over as they mature sounds like… parenting.
anthk 2 days ago [-]
I've been there, but going to cybercafés instead of having an internet connection at home until very late. A simlar case with a mobile phone, having to use the one from my dad until I had 18.
I nearly ended up alone, as anynone would expected. Parents understood too late the value of sharing common culture points, up to the point to apologyze and feeling really desperate on the consecuences.
Cracking up wifi and such saved me up a little, but not much. I missed TONS of stuff and experiences. When I could finally got all the media and proper skills, it was really damn late.
Don't do this to your kids, then. Time doesn't roll back. Ever. Don't be a shitty narcisist parent and let your kids develop their OWN tastes.
masterj 2 days ago [-]
I’m sorry this happened to you. However nothing in my reply implies cutting your children off from the world. Helping them avoid the harms of algorithmic feeds until they have developed the maturity to navigate them helps them be more connected to the world, not less.
With all due respect I think you are reading more there due to your own experiences, which sound like abuse, not parenting.
anthk 1 days ago [-]
Indeed. But in the skills case, ahem, formally, in paper. When I did a finished and advanced trade (pre-University IT, syadmin role), I aced the results as I had plenty of time to even make small patches to BTTV to support my $ELCHEAPO Conceptronic TV card. Having no internet at home made me really 'roguery' on how to achieve stuff, from cracking cable TV to inspect DVB packets, hack cable modems and pirate wifi. No formal education, just by myself, and I could do a trade from age 23 to 27 being lazy as hell because everything was trivial as I could read tons of the bundled books in the Debian Sarge DVD's.
I became really competent on how to 'survive' offline and Unix skills, far more than even the best ones in the grade (and even some math skills from a first year of College, among Lisp), but with really bad social skills but better since I met my SO at age 23 which convinced me to earn a trade. But I'm still a bit depressive for what I suffered.
Parents, listen to your kids, listen to your kids instead of sending them to a therapist, that won't work. Help on their tastes, support them, don't be a hardcore Mc Scrooge Cheapskate.
Spoiled kids are bad, OFC, but the polar opposite can be pretty much as dangerous if not more.
I coudn't even spend the money I had on Christmas on my own preferences since age 14 to 18, and I had to return a Chinese Megadrive console clone I won in a holyday lottery bingo in 1997 because you had to actually buy a separate cartridge.
I coudn't even buy cartridges for a NES I've got from my parents' friends because that was 'wasting money'. So, yes, I played all the games my peers got... about 7 years later, feeling myself more and more disconnected from the world and having to do huge efforst to switch from PC gaming and such back and forth. It was tiring. That would really burn you because you are like having to swtich back and forth from totally opposite cultures, my parents' one and my uncle/aunts' one.
rightbyte 18 hours ago [-]
Yeah I feel you. I didn't experience it as extreme as you, but it really sets its marks.
When I go to a store with my kids nowadays I let them spend 10% of what I buy. I whine a bit about buying too crappy plastic toys but that is it.
If they want some silly fruit or bouncy ball they get it.
I hope I don't overcompensate...
anthk 3 hours ago [-]
Well, you are overcompensating a little. Just let spend their earnings from allowances on anything they want.
rightbyte 18 hours ago [-]
How old are you? The internets were way more nice when we were kids. Not in the no 4chan edgelord way but the not toxic algorithmic way.
There is no way feeding YT etc. to kids is at any way good for them, their parents, humanity and so on.
edit:
And yes, I agree with you.
mohamedkoubaa 2 days ago [-]
Or: if you do this, go live in a community where this is the norm. No, it's not possible for everyone. But then again we can't all have nice things.
kefabean 2 days ago [-]
I purchased Mudita Kompakt phones for my kids when they started secondary school. There has been some pushback but overall it’s been a success.
The fact that they occasionally forget to take it with them or they leave it downstairs when they go to bed, makes me comfortable that it doesn’t have addicting properties.
And, because it’s android any apps demanded by school can easily be side loaded.
picofarad 21 hours ago [-]
That costs more than the last seven phones I've bought. Not total, but each. I was expecting maybe $100, but $400? Is this a joke? A $400 dumbphone that isn't gold plated?
Bratmon 2 days ago [-]
I don't think enough parents have internalized that if they're the "I don't let my teenager have a phone" parent in 2026, that also means they're the "I don't let my teenager have friends" parent.
kraquepype 2 days ago [-]
There's a line to toe - each kid is different, but with my daughter she went from a flip phone in middle school, to a smart phone in high school.
We didn't turn on mobile data for her smart phone (hand me down pixel) until about a year ago.
She is very responsible with it and it hasn't been much of an issue. She had no problems making friends, and if her phone was filtering shallow people out her friend pool a bit that probably wasn't a bad thing.
Now, my oldest son is dying to have a smartphone but really he just wants to use it as a tablet. I installed lineageOS on an old D821/Nexus5 and it can run some mobile games, and we have a chromebook.
We'll try the same flip phone in middle-school route for him. It fulfills the basic needs of emergency contact, and is a good test of responsibility with lower stakes.
AuthAuth 1 days ago [-]
I like lineageOS but it feels cruel to give a kid who is dying for a smartphone a nexus5 with lineageOS on it.
kraquepype 1 days ago [-]
He's fine with what it can do, he got it when he was 7. Some mobile games, music, streaming apps.
It's about as cruel as the 10yo MacBook I gave my daughter when she was younger. She loved that thing.
mystifyingpoi 2 days ago [-]
My gut reaction was "well, you can give them a phone, just lock down tiktok and other crap" but then I was thinking "well, in the end that doesn't matter in practice, they can buy a used device from a friend for pocket money and hiding it from me will be trivial", so... it all comes down to my relationship with the kid. Nothing else will work.
lukan 2 days ago [-]
If .. many parents would do this (like you imply), then there would be many kids without a phone who can be friends with each other?
Also I doubt the "not being able to have friend without a phone" in general. But surely harder in most areas.
obviouslynotme 2 days ago [-]
This is a symptom of not encouraging children into extracurricular activities. If all you have to bond over is social media, your friendship is empty. That's how you create terminally-online, mentally ill people. Everyone needs third spaces like sports, scouts, music, church, clubs, and the like. They get you out of your house and head and surround you with people who share similar interests.
john_strinlai 2 days ago [-]
my kid's extracurricular activity groups like to chat outside of club-time, too. being the only one of the group not able to do so would be ostracizing.
obviouslynotme 2 days ago [-]
I understand deeply. My parents delayed my driver's license until I was 17 because of financial tightness at the time, and that distanced me from some of my friends at the time. You know what I gained from that? I got to see who my real friends were, and even more importantly, I learned that not all friends are the same in a visceral way. I learned how to confront my parents in a way to communicate my viewpoint in a way they could understand. We learned together how to compromise and renegotiate our entire relationship, helping transition from child/parent to adult/parent.
You have two jobs as a parent: create a safe environment for your children and prepare them for the adult world that is wildly unsafe. Unfortunately, these two goals are both required and contradictory. A line must be walked. Too much deviation to one side or the other will cause severe problems.
That line cannot be prescribed. It's different for each child, but there's a big problem with how you put your point. You aren't trying to prepare the child for a dangerous and difficult world, you are trying to protect them in a different way, minimizing the other dangers. I completely understand. It hurts to see your child hurt. All you want to do is make the pain go away.
Instead of helping them avoid the pain of learning about relationships, you should guide them. Help them understand. They won't at first. Like a toddler throwing a tantrum that you won't let them stick objects in wall outlets, parents have to be the "bad guy" from time to time. Eventually, the toddler will grow up enough so that you can explain dangers to them and you won't have to do it for that thing anymore. The same applies here. They won't understand at first. Help them understand the dangers. When they do, you can teach them how to safely use the metaphorical wall outlet. Then you don't have to be the bad guy anymore.
john_strinlai 2 days ago [-]
this comment has a lot of assumptions about me and my children, based off of two very short sentences.
obviouslynotme 2 days ago [-]
You're right. If you think you are walking that line for each of your children, then you are the authority. It's just a common argument I hear from parents who want to avoid feeling bad, so I did make some assumptions.
2 days ago [-]
anthk 2 days ago [-]
My extracurricular activities were full of nerds (martial arts) with Play Stations and internet at home. So, as an owner of no inet or a console at home was pretty much hell from 2001 to 2005. Oh, and no cell phone until ~18.
The outcome? Really shitty social skills until I hit 27 or so. My dad really regreted what it did, and my mom become aware on how utterly shitty was to let a nerdy kid disconnected from their peers.
2 days ago [-]
LiteUser 2 days ago [-]
It hasn't been a problem for us. Our child has a cellular enabled Apple Watch (it has its own phone number). At home, the iPad satisfies all the other needs, and is restricted with Screen Time and Downtime. YMMV (kids are different)
jjulius 2 days ago [-]
>And the landline at home doesn't help you coordinate pickups and drop-offs as people start to do a wider variety of activities.
How did people coordinate these before even email became widespread?
creaturemachine 2 days ago [-]
Pick-ups and drop-offs? You walked yourself home, used your bike, or took the bus. This getting driven around is most ridiculous.
japhyr 2 days ago [-]
So many areas in the US are much less walkable and bikeable than they used to be. I say that as someone who bicycle commuted for years. When I rode my bike to school as a kid I dealt with 25-35 mph traffic. The traffic was much lighter, the vehicles were much smaller, the drivers weren't perfect but they were way less distracted, and the shoulders were in better shape.
We can try to raise our kids with values that are consistent with the ones we grew up with. But trying to give them the same conditions because "it's what we did" doesn't always match up with reality.
trumpdong 2 days ago [-]
Is it true that pickup truck drivers often threaten to run over bikes to assert dominance or is that just one of those myths about how crazy America is?
japhyr 2 days ago [-]
It depends on your definition of "threaten", but the short answer is yes. I live in a mountainous area that's a destination for road bikers and mountain bikers. There's lots of sources of tension between cyclists and drivers.
On a regular basis I see people racing past cyclists, rolling coal at cyclists (I can't believe that's even a term now), blaring horns, and a number of other behaviors that fall under "threatening".
US vehicles, especially pickups, have outgrown a lot of rural roads that had their origins as footpaths and horse paths. Even with well-intentioned cyclists and drivers, it's often times a setup for conflict.
wl 2 days ago [-]
I wear Lycra, ride a funny-looking carbon road bike, and average about 3,000 miles a year. In college, I rode a beater bike everywhere for transportation instead of owning a car. I’ve never experienced that kind of thing, though I’ve heard occasional stories.
Drivers don’t pay attention and seem like they’re trying to kill you, but that feels more like recklessness than malice.
wffurr 1 days ago [-]
I got honked at and told to get out of the road today, on a quiet neighborhood street I ride on every day.
masterj 2 days ago [-]
This is true, but it varies a lot based on local culture. "Let me buzz 'em / roll coal to teach 'em a lesson"
but you're not really going to see that in, say, Seattle
creaturemachine 22 hours ago [-]
True, but the solution isn't to put another car on the road. Show that it's still possible, be the change and all that.
BigTTYGothGF 2 days ago [-]
> How did people coordinate these before even email became widespread?
With a lot more difficulty.
nkg22 2 days ago [-]
We used to use payphones and call collect, then say a quick message when the collect service asked for your name.
"Who is calling?"
"Hi mom practice is over come pick me up!"
mystifyingpoi 2 days ago [-]
Ah, beautiful times. I remember that me and my friend abused Orange's feature to send voicemail messages directly to the voicemail inbox, without calling the other person at all. Since it was billed by the second, if you spoke very fast, it became much cheaper than SMS.
floren 2 days ago [-]
"I'll be done with marching band practice at 6:30"
"Ok, I'll come get you then"
OkayPhysicist 2 days ago [-]
Works great until your kid's the one that can't join their friends on, say, grabbing dinner after band practice, because they have no way of telling you "hey, change of plans".
If your kid can only participate in things that are planned well in advance, your kid is going to be missing out on ~80% of gatherings. Because everyone else is in the habit of making spontaneous plans, made possible by interconnectivity.
floren 1 days ago [-]
Are we talking about 8 year olds, or 15 year olds?
I think it's fine to give your 8th grader a flip phone. A third grader isn't "grabbing dinner after band practice".
For sports practice, I'd just take the sports bus home; the 30-60 minutes between the end of practice and the time the bus left was perfect for a little quiet reading or homework.
For band practice, I'd call my parents from the office phone, or plan to get a ride home from an older student who lived nearby, or just accept that I might miss out on something when mom picked me up at 6:30 and that's ok.
tayo42 1 days ago [-]
You can just borrow a phone
dredmorbius 1 days ago [-]
Pre-arranged times. Be there or else.
Payphones.
Time still exists. Payphones not so much.
And: payphones were ubiquitous. Car parks, bus stops, restaurants, bars, other businesses, random street corners, airports, bus depots, train stations. Probably several at a given high school at different locations. So long as you had loose change they were a reliable option. These started to disappear in the late 1990s, though support continued generally through the late aughts, and in certain locales (e.g., NYC) through the late 2010s.
There's some interesting technological anthropology in The Paper Chase, a film set at Harvard Law School in the early 1970s (released 1973), there is a payphone on the dorm floor, and it is the only phone available. That and a number of other elements date the film in ways that other set-dressing (costumes, architecture, cars) don't convey as emphatically.
fuzzzerd 2 days ago [-]
The issue isn't that it couldn't be done without technology. The problem is when everyone else has moved on to the technology based solution (mobile phones) if you don't you're just out of luck.
deepspace 2 days ago [-]
We used landlines of course, and it was an utter pain in the behind.
There was no way of letting anyone know that you were running late once they were already underway to pick you up.
contingencies 2 days ago [-]
I know some people who have kept their kids from having phones into high school.
In Australia this is normal. The distribution of phones increases slowly during high school, not before. Kids don't really use phones anyway, they use some combination of online games and messaging apps so they can do it from a computer or tablet without a phone.
perilunar 1 days ago [-]
> Kids don't really use phones anyway
My kids used the home phone for many years before they got their own cell phones. They would call their friends and grandparents. (The grandparents loved it)
contingencies 12 hours ago [-]
That's great but nobody has a 'home phone' anymore.
nameless912 2 days ago [-]
I was just talking about this with my partner the other day. We have an amazing retro games shop/arcade not far from our house, so I think for probably my kiddo's 5th birthday I'm going to take him to buy a Gameboy Advance SP and a couple of games He's already shown interest in video games and I think this is a great way to introduce him without overwhelming him. I'm sure the whole package will be <150 bucks and provide him with literally hundreds of hours of entertainment, and the games are almost literally a dime a dozen. It'll be a really simple reward system for school, life milestones, etc: let's go down the street and buy you a new game! Just like in the good old days.
We aren't a fully screen free family. Our kiddo watches probably 1/2 hour to 45 minutes of TV a day and we aren't so naive as to think plane trips and long car rides will be screen free, so we bring an old iPad loaded up with shows and movies he likes. We review the list beforehand and make sure it has what he wants (subject to our approval). But the night and day difference between a moderated amount of screen time and his peers who are full on iPad kids is just astounding. I just hope we can keep up the low screen time for as long as possible.
benvanderbeek 2 days ago [-]
Plane trips and long car rides are screen free with my 4 young kids (3-9) but that’s more about gluttony for punishment than principle.
cma5 2 days ago [-]
Used DS + R4 / M3 Card also does the job and you can use it as a walkman too
voidUpdate 1 days ago [-]
I've gotten a lot of mileage out of a softmodded DSi that reads game ROMs off an SD card. I haven't loaded it up with every single game ever, just some that I like, and it's been great to play on when I'm in bed. I've almost 100%'d picross 3D (unless it has secret extra content for after you finish)
picofarad 21 hours ago [-]
I have a soft modded 3DS that I just copied the games that I owned onto an SD card so that I didn't have to worry about my kids losing them anymore. Wonderful that people put in the effort so I can play all my games still.
jumpkick 2 days ago [-]
Ironic, the picture on this article appears to be AI generated. I thought the Sony CD player looked neat, and I'd never seen one like it before. I thought I might try to buy one on eBay, that's how cool I thought it was. But Google says "Digital fingerprints embedded within the file verify that this is an artificially generated rendering."
embedding-shape 2 days ago [-]
Yeah, bit shameful, I also got curious about the walkman-look-alike, but then I saw the reflection on the CD which seemed out of place, I think it's supposed to reflect the roof of the cover, but instead seems to reflect behind "the camera", kind of gave it away :/
The Walkman D-E220 is kind of close though, so not completely far away, but their CD players weren't so toy-y and rounded it seems.
jrmg 2 days ago [-]
I (genuinely) want to try the mouse with a giant scroll ball inside its single button.
QuantumNomad_ 2 days ago [-]
There are a couple that come pretty close to that among the ones on this page of old trackball mice:
There are three different photos on that page, so do scroll down and look at the other ones that are there beyond the first picture.
There’s also links to other pages on the site with even more models and history.
Also, if you’ve never seen/tried a trackball mouse, modern variants exist too. I have two different wireless ones that I bought really cheap on AliExpress that I use a lot and am really happy with. The two I have charge via USB-C and connect via Bluetooth. And even though I bought very cheap ones, the battery goes for many days before I have to charge them again.
alnwlsn 2 days ago [-]
The school Macs had the Mighty Mouse with the tiny trackball for scrolling. It was my first time seeing a Mac, but I always thought there had to be a setting somewhere that would let you move the cursor around with it. Spent many computer lab hours looking for it.
analyte123 2 days ago [-]
My eye went to the labeled floppy disk, since no floppy regularly used for more than a week ever had that pristine of a label on it, and there’s no practical reason you’d use floppy disks over flash drives or burned CDs today. (And why would you write 1998 on it?) Alas, none of us will be able to tell before too long.
bee_rider 2 days ago [-]
It seems plausible, at least, that the floppy has such a pristine label because the kids didn’t end up using it. Even if I was a kid and into retro games I don’t think I’d care to play my parents’ saves. (Not to say I have any strong belief that this is a non-AI image).
aaronax 2 days ago [-]
I was thinking that the writing is upside down. Very wrong IMHO to write on a floppy disk that way.
mghackerlady 1 days ago [-]
I thought it was fishy, but the text on one of the CD cases gave it away
throw03172019 2 days ago [-]
He is a technologist as stated.
kraquepype 2 days ago [-]
Yeah that is a bit of a disappointing mislead with this being an article about retro-tech.
I was hoping it was a display of some of the mix tapes or other peripherals they were using.
nostrademons 2 days ago [-]
I'm not quite going back so far - IMHO the pinnacle of technology was around 2011, enough that you had smartphones and could use them as a tool but before engagement-hacking got so good that everything became an addiction.
I am sitting here using Claude to get Proxmox and Debian up and running with my ~50TB of local hard drives though, so that I can get most of our digital life hosted locally and independent from the whims of big Internet companies. Because I think that there's a lot of value in having physical possession of your bits and bytes and control over how you access it, along with nobody else having access to it. My kids are still young enough that they prefer the playground over the computer (and maybe there's a generational thing where at least the 5 year old will actually decline screen time so he can go plant seeds or paint or something), but I want to build actual tech skills and knowledge of how the digital world is put together in them, rather than just having stuff fed to them.
hx8 2 days ago [-]
What age were you in 2011? I'm willing to bet 14-21.
I think the pinnacle was 2003, right when the internet was becoming good but before World of Warcraft launched which changed how the attention economy worked by introducing the subscription model for digital content to millions of people.
I happened to be in that 14-21 range. It's an age range most people have rose tinted nostalgia glasses for.
nostrademons 2 days ago [-]
I was 30 in 2011, and working on building that Internet future.
2011 was the first year that I got told "No, you can't build that feature because we're renegotiating our contract with Twitter and they want too much money." It was also the first year I got told "We're killing products beloved by users because we need to compete with Facebook." And it was the first year I was told "How can we appeal to users' egos to gather more data from them?" by management.
I guess 2010 was the year we found out our employers were stiffing us with anticompetitive agreements. But up through 2011, there was a feeling that we were actually building things for users because they wanted them, and not manipulating them against their will. It changed after that, first gradually, then suddenly.
Multicomp 2 days ago [-]
I divide up the world into the pre-iPad world and the post-iPad world.
Less because of the iPad itself (though it was the first mainstream 'consumption first' device in my mind) and more because of those sorts of early user-hostile and spyware-first models that were coming out around that time.
dosisking 1 days ago [-]
I am much older but I consider Ivy Bridge and the iPhone 4S to be the best. So that's around 2012.
I also think the 11 inch MacBook Air was the best laptop, but there is no equivalent nowadays because Apple wants you to buy an iPad+keyboard, which is actually heavier. The last year for that MacBook Air was 2015.
Nothing has come out after 2012 that interests me at all, including the 'AI' stuff
geophph 2 days ago [-]
For me I think 2004 with the launch of Halo 2 and playing over xbox live with the homies.
tedggh 2 days ago [-]
My kids are still too young but I constantly worry about how the world will look like in 8-10 years. On a recent trip to Europe we had to rush inside a bar during a storm. The place was packed and the only table available was next to a large party of loud teenagers on some sort of celebration, maybe a birthday. We had no choice but to sit next to them. After a while, probably over an hour, my wife asks me if I have noticed the kids. Obviously I have. But she insisted, “do you see”?. I have no idea what she’s talking about. So I watch them interact for a bit and I get it. Not one single kid had a phone on them. They are all eating, drinking, talking and laughing like if it’s the 90s. That was pretty amazing to see and gave me lots of hope.
floren 1 days ago [-]
I was struck by something similar when I visited the county fair in rural Grant County, Washington in 2023. We were walking around, checking out the 4-H/FFA barns and the exhibit halls, and there were teenagers everywhere, and almost none of them had their phones out. They were in little groups, talking and seeing the sights. Nobody was, I dunno, harassing goats for TikTok videos. Even the kids on "barn duty" (maintaining a presence in the barn with your animals in case somebody has questions or there's a problem) were reading books and playing cards, not scrolling.
I don't know if it was the local culture (I grew up around there, I don't think there's anything so special about the local culture) or just that the kids aren't as fucked up as we think, but it was nice!
keybored 2 days ago [-]
Europe. Straight out of the 90s’s.
alnwlsn 2 days ago [-]
It's a different category, but I can't tell you how much learning programming in BASIC and learning hardware on Z80 got me to understand how computers actually work.
BASIC is just plain approachable - turn on the computer and it's there. Also I had the paper manuals manuals that came with the computer and all the old BASIC books that my school library never threw away to learn from. When you're young enough that "install software" or "download" look like scary words that will get you in trouble for "messing up the computer", an old computer with BASIC (which your parents wanted to throw away anyways) is fair game to explore. More of a thing when households only had one main computer, I suppose.
By the time I was old enough to start learning hardware, the Arduino had already come out. I learned some things on that, but as soon as you have to go below all the abstractions it does for you things get cryptic. I actually didn't get into Z80 stuff until a few years later, but only after that did I actually feel I understood what was going on with the Arduino. Being able to poke at things with a scope which aren't embedded inside a tiny plastic brick goes a long way.
picofarad 2 days ago [-]
I'm not a new Hacker News user. I just had surgery and I don't feel like getting up and looking up my password.
I've always heard that learning ANSI BASIC or any basic, Q basic, Microsoft basic, any of them, first; usually leads to a lifetime of bad programming habits.
So of course I learned basic first, but then I was like, oh, I'll just learn Fortran, and then C++, and then I got completely lost and never found my way back.
Until Python, technically.
alnwlsn 2 days ago [-]
Technically I learned the drag and drop Lego Mindtorms first. Don't know what kind of habit forming research there is about that.
Any of them are a big step from "computer is just for MS PAINT" to "wow, it actually did something I told it to".
By the time I got to the Z80 stuff I had abandoned basic (though learning C from Arduino is also something people tend not to recommend). Once I learned some Z80 assembly and I encountered BASIC again, I was struck by how similar assembly language and BASIC are, specifically the setting variables and then jumping around all the time part. They taught this stuff to kids!
foobarian 2 days ago [-]
I'm sure you turned out just fine and don't use goto in Python ;)
beowulfey 2 days ago [-]
There's definitely something to this idea. Our toddler absolutely loves her Yoto player, which is kind of like a tiny Walkman with cards instead of tapes. It's new but has that same old-tech feeling, IMO. She loves to pick out her favorite "albums" (some of which are stories) and listen to them. We have them all where she can easily grab them and swap them out. Have definitely lost a few cards but they're cheap enough and they usually turn up again eventually, plus it helps teach her to keep her things organized (if you lose it... it's gone!).
We also got an old VCR for free, and pulled out all the VHS tapes from the parents' attics. Another great system for the kiddo. We have an assortment of tapes that she can choose from, and we let her pick the tape and insert it herself. I think the tactile feeling of selecting and starting it up is very satisfying.
Somewhere along the way we forgot the importance of touch in interfacing with technology. We are definitely starved for that sensation in the modern world.
jdhawk 2 days ago [-]
+1 for Yoto, our kids (5-7) have abused them for years. The Make Your Own cards let me create full length audiobooks, playlists, etc..
super stuff
bitwize 2 days ago [-]
The concept is super cute, and it'd be nice if there were content actually on the cards. But it's 2026 and the rightsholders would never actually allow that. As soon as Yoto's servers go dark, there goes any content not already cached on your machine. (And maybe the stuff that is, due to licensing arrangements.) Fuck that shit so hard.
If I had kids, they're getting a cassette player. Bonus: it'll double as data storage for the C64 I'd buy them.
I wonder if minidisc can be used as a tape drive on a c64... ATRAC doesn't mess with audio fidelity much at all, and c64 tape bitrate has to be real low, right?
Did the parents of 30 years ago, think the tech you’re giving today had gone too far?
wrxd 2 days ago [-]
In 30 years most of today tech won’t work at all. Think of everything that depends on a server being online and on you paying a subscription.
I can still listen to CDs from 30 years ago, read books from centuries ago and so on. I can play all my Game Boy and PC games. At a certain point society collectively accepted to pay rent rather than own stuff and in 30 years time we won’t have much left from this era.
pendenthistory 2 days ago [-]
Yeah, the double standard... We are here on hacker news probably because our parents let us freely explore computers and the internet. "Screen time" wasn't even a concept. Most friends I talked to had really off-hands parents as well, parents were rarely involved or interested in what the kids were doing. Glad I didn't have overbearing parents who limited my technology use to the radio and LPs.
doctorpangloss 2 days ago [-]
Well a lot of people, which must include many parents, cannot limit their screen time so is it any wonder they fixate on this with their kids?
Karrot_Kream 2 days ago [-]
My guess is this type of screen addicted user is overrepresented among internet commenters as only a small fraction of the population actually comments on anonymous/pseudonymous forums. Which is why it attracts so much energetic negativity on HN.
obviouslynotme 2 days ago [-]
My parents did, and they were right. I had limited tv, games, and computer time. They kicked me out of the house after school, only to return for supper. I am eternally grateful for that decision. I have rich friendships that continue thirty years later.
Today, the tech is even worse for children. Playing too much Nintendo might isolate you and hurt your schoolwork, but iPad toddlers are fundamentally damaged.
picofarad 2 days ago [-]
You do raise a valid point. 30 years ago was 1996. So, a Nintendo 64 would be overkill, but a Super Nintendo would be fine, right? And a palm pilot would be overkill, but something like a Texas Instruments TI49/A would be fine, right? so you would say if you wanted to use 30 year old tech you should really use 35 year old tech or so, perhaps.
scottishbee 15 hours ago [-]
Yes. There was a massive hand-wringing about cable TV for instance. And cordless phones (much less car phones!).
myky22 2 days ago [-]
Glad to see this.
As an Child and Adolescent Psychiatric, expert in screen time and soon to be father. I found myself thinking more and more about this.
I thought about resurrecting my old game boy advance to introduce my little boy to the tech world.
The long loading times, no auto-save, no in game purchases... I think It Will help him develop a healthier relationship with the machine in his more vulnerable youth.
ZaoLahma 1 days ago [-]
> I thought about resurrecting my old game boy advance to introduce my little boy to the tech world.
Hello myopia my old friend.
We will wear glasses to the end.
Because my vision's slowly slipping.
Played Gameboy while I should be sleeping.
And the vision that I once could claim. Doesn't remain.
Now there's just the blur, of distance.
bitwize 2 days ago [-]
Long loading times? On a GBA? I'm calling bot
lifty 2 days ago [-]
At what age are you planning on introducing it?
myky22 2 days ago [-]
0-3 electronic toys (piano and cuase-effect toys), 3-6 simple electronic but short Loop, 6 onwards Game Boy Advance like.
But my opinion will change with the ongoing and future scientific proof.
11101010010001 2 days ago [-]
What is the current scientific proof for Game Boy Advance at age 6?
infra_snowman 2 days ago [-]
I don't think kids need 1990s technology. I think they need technology that serves them rather than technology that wants something from them.
spaqin 1 days ago [-]
Well, that's a description of 90s tech. In lack of the new technology that serves the user, old must make do.
kraquepype 2 days ago [-]
We do this with my kids, but really it's only a side effect of my love of archaic technology and isn't really forced.
My boys have their own walk-man cassette players, and I've made a bunch of mix tapes both for them and myself to play in the car.
My daughter had my ancient JVC receiver that I got from my parents as a stereo - handed down to one her brothers.
We pick out DVDs, VHS and Laser discs to watch sometimes, sometimes on old CRT TVs as well.
I have all my game consoles in good working order so there's a ton of options for stuff to play that isn't cutting edge.
My daughter loves that there is a CD player in her car, so she learned how to burn mix CDs.
This is all alongside modern tech so they get a good mix. Hopefully it gives them a bit of perspective.
collabs 2 hours ago [-]
Kind of tangential but the picture has floppies so... I absolutely hated floppies. I could never tell when one would go bad. I would ride my bicycle to a cyber cafe, send and receive emails and save text files or whatever to my floppy to bring back home to read but sometimes they just randomly failed. No idea why or how. Something about CRC failed. I'll take solid state drives or USB flash drives over floppy disks for daily use any day.
jpb0104 21 hours ago [-]
We built https://www.beanstalk.club/ just for this!!! Our kids organize play dates on their own now. They can collaborate on video games with their friends.
wewewedxfgdf 2 days ago [-]
I think parents are far, far more interested in kids using retro tech than kids ever are.
It's nostalgia, not practical or interesting for kids because the world has changed.
strife25 2 days ago [-]
Generally agree with this approach. We need to make sure that friction exists in our kids' lives.
I have a toddler, and screen time is something that is on top of my mind, Balancing the trade-offs of when to use it while also minimizing it as much as possible.
Something that made me really sick to the stomach was learning how Cocomelon was doing AB testing to make sure that children don't look away from the show[1]. In response to that, I default to showing my kids shows from the 90s that didn't use cuts, aggressive cuts, to keep attention going. Things like Sesame Street, Mr. Rogers Neighborhood, etc.
Heck, I remember trying out one Disney show focused on Minnie Mouse and barely allowed the show to run for three minutes after I realized that there were multiple cuts happening every three seconds.
I feel like the method we used worked really well. We allowed screen time only after meals and they had to eat; I wasn’t a “clean your plate” nazi; but they had to eat something. Then as they got older it turned into; get up and dressed for school and eat; the faster they were ready the more screen time they had before school. Same for after school; homework and dinner. I also use it for discipline; want to call names or be mean? Lose screen time.
Now in middle school it’s summer vacation and they’re home all day. They don’t get screen time until chores are done. They go all day without screens rather than do their chores and I’m ok with that.
kardianos 2 days ago [-]
Yes. Books. Family computer in the common area. A house phone.
For a family, these are so much better.
cambaceres 1 days ago [-]
I guess this is off topic, but my best advice to parents that worry about their kids screen time:
Restrict kids screen time hard. My kids are only allowed to watch a movie in the weekend, plus a couple of episodes of a show they enjoy. No ipads, no phones. Fill your home with books and comic magazines, you can buy used ones online for very little money.
My kids are 6, 4, and 4 years old. I understand that restricting kids screen time gets harder the older they get. At the same time, they are able to go out to play when they get a bit older.
jephs 2 days ago [-]
I've got 5 & 6 year old kids. They have a a VHS player / tiny CRT monitor with a few dozen tapes, a tiny janky mp3 player with all my ripped post-y2k era albums, and lots of books and art supplies.
VHS tapes are so cheap. Every thrift store has hundreds for like half a buck each. All your friends have a box in their basement they want to get rid of.
juris 2 days ago [-]
nahaha
probably the -worst- thing I ever did as a kid was take my parents' (mostly ripped) collection of VHS tapes and drop them into the 80 gallon fish tank to raise the fish up so I CoUlD ToUCh the FiBsCH. ah, then i blamed my brother... yup that memory still hurts!
i soo can't wait for my karmic come-uppance with my... exceedingly large retro video game collection.
sidravi1 2 days ago [-]
We recently got a landline. A few of my daughter’s friends got the “tin can phone” but it looked so poorly made and over-priced. It was easy enough to setup voip with one of those old school stretchy cabled phones.
It pretty cute watching her get excited when it rings and sweet that she gets to talk to her friends any time she likes… from the living room.
tisdadd 1 days ago [-]
This was a fun read, as I am planning things for my daughter I love to see other people's ideas. I am actually thinking of using one of my old XP desktops and game tote with offline when she gets older for similar reasons. Watching my nephew with a tablet, I see many bad habits. One thing I appreciate with older tech is the lack of instant gratification so you must learn patience and to think what you really want.
For phone, we might use a Bluetooth to home phone adapter I had got my uncle in the past, not sure yet how things will look in a few years. Then we can have a shared family phone when home was my thought.
merelysounds 1 days ago [-]
> I’ve curated some sites about how to (...), or different ways to tie your shoes.
Perhaps Ian's Shoelace Site[1], a very informative and user friendly website that has been continuously updated for two decades at least. I'm now curious what are the other curated websites.
I visited a long-time friend recently and was surprised that they were using modern LP player for music. But the surprise itself actually turned into curiosity. I got the urge to buy one too, if only to go back to the more-dedicated experience of choosing a disk from a catalog and playing it with explicit intention.
Maybe LPs are too much, but trying physical CDs again sounds like a cool idea. Especially because they can easily be rewritten and maybe I could get kids to create their own "mix tapes".
cogogo 2 days ago [-]
I have been dying for a landline and making a “booth” with a corded phone in a weird nook of our tiny house. Still have not pulled the trigger because I keep going down a rabbit hole of old payphones vs crazy expensive industrial phones. I am weird about this issue but it is entirely so the kids can be home alone and call us or 911. The thing is out absolutely amazing neighbor tends to fill this gap. She does not babysit but is willing to be “around” just in case. Community matters so much.
Also super happy with the switch ii on our only tv. We know what they are doing and can play with them.
aidenn0 2 days ago [-]
When my oldest two kids were tweens, it seemed like the average age of first-cell-phone was about 10 in their social circles.
I didn't want to do that, but not being able to text also amounted to social exclusion, so I got them each a jmp.chat line and they could send and receive texts from the family computer.
Haven't had to do it for my youngest kid yet as the age that her friends are getting cell phones is much older (she's in 7th and less than half of her friends have a phone on them at all times -- though many have a phone to take when they e.g. go on bike rides).
le-mark 1 days ago [-]
Same here. Very few kids in my sons middle school class have gotten phones, most of his friends have not. Makes it a lot easier when they’re not a lone. I also see drastically fewer kids (and adults) on devices in restaurants which is encouraging.
throwaway173738 1 days ago [-]
> I bought a mini CD boom box for the house. My oldest loves bringing it around to different rooms, plugging it in, and putting in a CD. I bought her the K-Pop Demon Hunters CD for her birthday. The local public library has CDs! CDs are awesome.
Yoto players pretty neatly reproduce the old experience of putting something physical into a player for my toddler. He’ll probably graduate to a CD player when he’s older but right now he can pick from a set of cards and hear music or a story.
protocolture 1 days ago [-]
Interesting timing.
I am looking to set up a raspi with Debian and running Gizmos and Gadgets, and some other old educational games.
Probably going to use my Callisto 2 case in the short term.
Considering putting a small launcher together with some images of different games in doxbox for him to play. Maybe some old mac ones too.
perilunar 1 days ago [-]
Re VoIP phones: don't most home routers come with a phone port that you can just plug a regular old phone handset into? My ISP provides a home phone number with the router and it just works as it aways has. I guess technically it's VoIP now but originally i think they shared the audio line with a splitter?
jonplackett 2 days ago [-]
I’ve just set up some old phones between my daughter and her school friends. I also looked at tincan but it’s quite expensive for each device + high monthly cost.
Using voipfone I have them all on a separate network with 3 digit phone numbers for £2 a month each and all connected with a grandstream voip controller + an old landline phone that I got on eBay / donated from neighbours.
It’s been so nice to see them all calling each other up and chatting. Retro tech is so good because it’s single purpose. No distractions.
andersonreed 2 days ago [-]
I too built a landline phone inspired by tincan. It runs off of an old macbook I repurposed as an ubuntu server, and routes through voip.ms. I used a pap2t linksys adapter so we could use a cool old analog phone. it mostly works, but for my youngish kid, its amazing and she loves it.
one nice thing about it is that i can set up call hours and a whitelist of allowed phone numbers, so she doesn't yet have to deal with strangers calling.
firesteelrain 23 hours ago [-]
The thing about this is that is missing is the social aspect of it. We got Nintendo’s, CDs, Walkman’s etc because everyone else had one and we enjoying sharing it with each other.
janpeuker 2 days ago [-]
I bought a Super Nintendo Mini and it's the best thing ever - children love it and don't feel left out of digital entertainment
zellyn 2 days ago [-]
My kids (12-year-old boy, 7-year-old girl) recently got Tin Can phones, as did several of their friends, and absolutely love them.
One note: you can authorize regular phone numbers for them to be able to call, but only if you pay the subscription ($10/month I think? We didn't do this...)
I know I could build the same thing out of esp32's but it would be a big hassle, and I'd have to build one for all their friends too!
ale42 2 days ago [-]
The VoIP landline seems a way better solution than the proprietary Tin Can phone: while it looks nice, it apparently needs a subscription to call regular numbers... and AFAIK you can't call it from a normal phone (please correct me if I'm wrong!)
nutifafa 1 days ago [-]
I certainly agree here, tech in the wrong hands is danger waiting to be unleashed. As a parent guiding what your child have access to is crucial to their wellbeing.
nkg 2 days ago [-]
I went the same route. I have bought stuff from the 2000s for my 10yo girl: pink plastic digital camera, mp3 player, a desktop PC in the middle of the living room.
Btw, do you know any website where we can legally download mp3 ?
picofarad 20 hours ago [-]
You can use SoundCloud, SoundClick, a lot of artists have set up MP3 downloads for their music there, Bandcamp, as another user mentioned, and also archive.org.
There's also yt-dlp, but I'm less keen on that because it doesn't do the ID3 tagging.
dlord 21 hours ago [-]
Bandcamp?
jryio 2 days ago [-]
I would do the same for my children ~ However children have a special ability to revolt against any arbitrary constraints provided by parents, community, society. It differs person to person of course.
a1o 2 days ago [-]
I am looking for recommendations for a boombox that is kid friendly and can play CDs. Something not too big but also a bit more resistant. If it can be colorful that is a plus!
fantasizr 2 days ago [-]
something to be said for listening to the same cd over and over due to limited options, where you really get to know the tracks inside and out.
postscape 2 days ago [-]
With 3 kids - CD's and DVDs are a hell no for me. Dealing with skips and getting through DVD menus to get to the actual movie is insane.
I have gone to VHS for movies - you can still get all the classics at your local thrift store.
Kids trash discs, but you can give them copies (with menus removed if desired)
postscape 19 hours ago [-]
Why the downvote?
Yes, so now I am sitting in front of my computer burning discs instead of letting them grab a VHS and sliding it in - clicking the triangle button...
password4321 12 hours ago [-]
I think VHS is fun, definitely sturdier than discs
hgoel 1 days ago [-]
Time for more anecdotes from people who think they're geniuses, about how socially isolating your children is actually good for them.
Just going to be more of the same shit many of us dealt with in our childhoods, having productive pursuits mocked because the adults think they're the smartest people in the world.
petemill 1 days ago [-]
It's not social isolation it's creating a learning experience filled with resistance instead of handing everything on a platter
hgoel 1 days ago [-]
"My interests are the only ones that matter and your interests are a waste of time so the resistance I add is actually a good thing. Be happy I don't outright block them"
utopiah 1 days ago [-]
IMHO the intent is good but amalgamating problems causing confusion and strange solutions.
What actually does make "old" tech good?
I'd argue it's agency. It can be the physicality of it too but if so then one has to pinpoint actually what it is, e.g is the presence of CD covers in the living room as reminder that you do have a collection? If so would a poster suffice?
I think kids can absolutely use contemporary tech but it has to be done responsibly.
A smartphone or a laptop is not the problem. The problems are :
- advertisements prompting for "more"
- friction-less unlimited availability
- unmetered unplanned usage
- content that requires no effort, no actual thinking, to consume
but holding the physical medium or have a "retro" look is superficial. It doesn't actually matter.
You can absolutely give a smartphone to a very young kid, say a 5 years old. What you can not do though is hand them that smartphone with installed an app that will provide limitless uncurated videos or games. Give them a phone with a 2hrs long documentary on animals or with challenging pedagogical games and you will see that they enjoy it, for a bit, then have to move on. It's NOT the device, it's the content and the software that makes that content available. I really get tired of "screen" time. No kid get hooked on hard to complete digital homework. They get hooked on apps designed and providing content itself made to be addictive.
It's really not about the shape or age of the device.
Partly agree. I agree that what makes old tech good is agency, but I find it strange that you offer as an example "handing a 5yo a phone with a documentary". Phones give you no agency, other than play and stop. They don't work for you, they work for their master (Google or apple).
picofarad 1 days ago [-]
I think the point was that the five-year-old will get bored of the documentary, so it's not merely the phone that's addictive, it's the content that the apps have on them.
utopiah 1 days ago [-]
Exactly, thanks for clarifying.
utopiah 1 days ago [-]
Indeed, the irony of me complaining that the article confuses problem... only for me to do the same!
Indeed a video on a phone provides very limited agency. I was mostly trying to highlight, as someone else pointed out, that demanding content will not have the same effect. Thus blaming the device itself is wrong.
Edit: shit... now when I acknowledge my mistake I sound like a sycophantic chatbot! Ugh. Edited to replace "You're right" by "Indeed". I'll have to remember that.
guizzy 2 days ago [-]
I really like the idea conceptually, but I have two issues with it.
1. I sympathise a lot with the impulse here, as I do also feel personally that the way I grew up had the right balance of convenience and dangers, but I suspect all generations feel the same, and I'd be afraid that this is just imposing my nostalgia on my kids. I know, I know, kids seem scarily hypnotized by screens and social media, and trashy online content, but... My parents were also alarmed that when I was growing up that unchecked I could spend an entire weekend on the computer, with only reluctant breaks for food and sleep. Yet I think I grew up to be a reasonably well adjusted adult. I'd be also wary here that by imposing "my nostalgia" on my kids, I'd robbing them of building meaningful shared cultural bagage with their peers.
2. I'm afraid that by sheltering kids from the current state of technology, they will be poorly equipped to deal with it when they leave this protective bubble. No matter how much genie bottling we try, it's never going back in. The only way to a healthy relationship with technology, internet, etc... is through, not around or backwards. Create healthy tech, online habits, not by creating an environment where they cannot see the issues, but through good old parenting: setting a boundary when they're young, explaining it, and when you relax it as they get older confirm that they understood the reason for the boundaries and are placing healthy ones on their own.
geophph 2 days ago [-]
Yeah I agree with you fully here. As much as the nostalgia twinges my heart and I want the same for my kids, I’m not sure it’s doing them any favors. Us holding onto a past they never knew doesn’t mean we’re doing “the right thing” for them. Alas, parenting is hard.
pm90 1 days ago [-]
This was an excellent read. I admire the lengths to which the author has gone to enable this experience and then to document and share it. As a new parent myself, Ive been thinking about this. While I don’t have the same affinity to physical media (IMO its plastic waste), I do want to guard the child from the infinite online slop machine; but I also don’t want them to not use technology that may be useful. My approach is to treat them as a human that can make choices based on tradeoffs… critical to this is perhaps some kind of guided experience with tech so that they are aware of it/dont get bedazzled by something they see their friends/clasmates doing. Im not sure what that will look like but I appreciate other parents are thinking along similar lines.
I do think that what exists now by default is just not acceptable… I and my spouse are privileged to understand how tech works, what it can do to someones mind etc. but the vast majority of people probably don’t… and as such a significant % of children are quite likely having a terrible experience…
cma5 2 days ago [-]
I think, YouTube is a double edged sword. There is so much interesting and inspiring content on there but it's tainted by 95% slop. What I'm doing for myself is having an adblock, blocking shorts and redirecting the homepage to subscriptions. This is of course no child protection but at least it helps me to not kill too much time.
protocolture 1 days ago [-]
>95% slop.
Ah, an optimist.
ThreatPortSec 2 days ago [-]
It's good my man. Congrlt.
dlev_pika 2 days ago [-]
As the parent of an 8 yr old, I absolutely feel this.
We use CDs at home, thanks to my wife resisting getting rid of her huge collection years ago. Mine got stolen :(
dlcarrier 2 days ago [-]
They may have been first released in 1982, but CDs are still the most high-tech widespread way to buy music. Newer technologies to buy music, like SACD and DVD-A have never had widespread support.
jjulius 2 days ago [-]
Awesome! My kiddos love digging through my vinyl collection.
dlev_pika 2 days ago [-]
Love it!
I have been dj’ing for ~20 years, and have a sizeable house music vinyl collection. I can’t wait for my kiddo to get into it. She’s showing interest already.
jjulius 2 days ago [-]
Same! ~25 years or so for me. I'm just now letting my oldest begin to manipulate the vinyl records beyond just playing them, but they've both loved slapping CDs into my CDJs and going wild with them.
alephnerd 2 days ago [-]
I'm not sure if a landline phone or physical media is needed (a shared family computer is a good idea until HS), but both those as well as a family computer imply parents being actively involved and reviewing media that their kids are consuming.
That is probably the most important factor.
Like having your own managed digital media server and some personal MDM would give you the ability to continue to use and engage with the current zeitgeist but with controls.
keybored 1 days ago [-]
I'm a technologist. In my dayjob I implement digital versions of analog solutions. In my work I get frustrated by the tech. In my work I get frustrated that our own software is difficult to use and buggy. In my freetime I read about how technologists elsewhere are successful at making society uniformly worse. I also read about how other technologists buy new iPhones and throttle them so they won't doomscroll. Then I worry about the kids who just want to play cursed mobile games and watch absolute slop junk AI filth. Then they rage when they get them yanked. Then I think to myself. I'm a technologist. But technology? That is for the peons without self-control or throttled iPhone 17.
ares623 2 days ago [-]
Glad I'm not alone. I do it mostly for me, but there is also the ulterior motive/hope that my young kids will enjoy media that isn't constantly trying to get them addicted; or at least know that _alternatives_ exist.
So far I've:
- gotten into film photography. It's so much more enjoyable and I cherish the few crappy photos I take. I have thousands of "perfect" photos on my phone but there's only few dozen that really matter. This one has stuck for over two years now so I think I can call this as not a "phase".
- cassettes for music. This one is still the "phase" stage. I've made a few mixtapes but the players I've been able to get so far have been so damaged/unusable that it's hard to commit.
- a typewriter. Only got this a few days ago. I want to type the made-up stories I tell during bed time. I want them to "pretend work" with me. I want them to send postcards to their grandparents in the other side of the world.
- retro or retro styled games. Games like the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Shredder's Revenge one. Anything without microtransactions or timed events to feed the FOMO. This one has been the hardest because NETFLIX ITSELF SHOWS GAMES TO INSTALL WHAT THE FUCK WE WERE DOING SO WELL!
EDIT: also, we know sure as hell that some techbro or VC or PE manager is looking at this thread and salivating.
perilunar 1 days ago [-]
> cassettes for music
Yes. Lots of mentions here about CDs, but cassettes are a better tech for small children. Mine loved playing tapes, and could use a cassette player well before they could read. The bigger physical buttons help too.
Also, most cassette players are also recorders — get them some blank tapes and show them how to record — they'll love it.
JuniperMesos 1 days ago [-]
Serious question, why are you paying for netflix? What would happen if you just stopped doing that?
EmiliaStar 2 days ago [-]
Useful reframe: it's not old vs. new tech, it's tools you command vs. media that commands you. "Retro" correlates with "good for kids" mostly because old tools aren't engagement-optimized — they sit there until the kid acts. A modern non-algorithmic tool can be just as good.
What a dumbphone doesn't solve is the social tax — opting a kid out of the addictive layer can also opt them out of the group chat. That's the actually-hard part.
CalRobert 2 days ago [-]
True - for what it's worth, I find having my own library on Jellyfin much nicer than Netflix (or god help us, youtube). Just downloading the videos you like from youtube and setting them up as Jellyfin "channels" is a much calmer experience than using YT.
EvanAnderson 2 days ago [-]
Yeah-- the group chat is / was the damned problem.
My daughter's sports teams, since moving up to 12U, have had group chats. She was absolutely getting left behind in the social interaction. It was painful to watch.
It's still a pain point because we've been limiting her SMS to known contacts. We're probably coming to have to capitulate on that because other parents don't seem to grok what we are trying to do and don't understand why we want to get their kids' phone numbers to add to my daughter's approved contact list. I guess we're the only people who have ever done this... >sigh<
toast0 2 days ago [-]
Ugh, group chats. Even if I want my kiddo to participate which I'm not 100% sure I do, there's nothing that works for all the kids. Some of the kids don't have a phone number, so SMS and other things that require a phone number don't work. iMessage doesn't work because 50% of the kids don't have iPhones. email doesn't work, because it's email.
There's team apps for the parents to use (which are universally terrible, but it is what it is), but not for the kids, because it's better to pretend it doesn't happen than acknowledge it does and deal with the necessary issues of abuse and privacy.
actionfromafar 2 days ago [-]
It's a heavy approach, but I think with Claude Code you could set something up that mirrors between whatever groupchat they use and her SMS.
EvanAnderson 2 days ago [-]
It's an SMS group chat and iPhone parental controls. Basically if somebody not in her contact list joins the chat she's locked out of that chat until we vet the contact and add them.
jjulius 2 days ago [-]
>What a dumbphone doesn't solve is the social tax — opting a kid out of the addictive layer can also opt them out of the group chat. That's the actually-hard part.
It's hard to say how this'll go in the long run. I have two littler children right now, and a lot of the parents of much younger kids, at least in the area we live in, seem to be trying really hard to move in the "dumb phone/don't let them fall into these addictive layers" direction. Many of the parents we meet talk about eventually giving them dumb phones, or getting a landline at home so kids can call each other.
My hope is that with sustained effort from the community, this sort of concern falls by the wayside to a good degree. Who knows how it'll play out in the long-term given how much our culture has structured itself around this bullshit, but it's nice to see folk trying to push back in a more concerted way.
SubmarineClub 2 days ago [-]
I imagine it’ll be quite socially stratified - upper-middle class parents will be giving their kids dumbphones and keeping them off social media, possibly sending them to ‘tech-free’ schools, while poorer parents won’t.
rad-b 2 days ago [-]
Unfortunately this seems quite plausible from today’s POV. As the old saying goes if you don’t want to be the product, you’ll have to pay for it. And I see only a silver of people being rich enough to afford and educated enough to care for paying privacy- or sanity-preserving tools and services.
dlev_pika 2 days ago [-]
We’ve dug this hole ourselves, without knowing better, over the last decade or so. Most social life / communications happens inside those platforms.
If we want our kids to thrive in the world without being hooked on this attention syphoning machines, we must get the socials out of those walled gardens.
This is a huge challenge, and no one but us will build it. It will require deliberate action in our community.
jjulius 2 days ago [-]
It's a massive struggle. I'm somewhat thankful that we didn't have kids until after it was apparent what the impact of this sort of ecosystem has on them, and it's refreshing to meet other parents who feel the same way. Who knows what kind of success we'll have, but it's reassuring to know that there's a push from at least some subset of parents with littles.
BeetleB 2 days ago [-]
> We’ve dug this hole ourselves, without knowing better, over the last decade or so.
I tire of hearing this.
We definitely knew better. I definitely did. Lots of people who did not opt into these services did. We were not silent about it.
Everyone else just refused to listen. Willful ignorance is how they got there.
dnnddidiej 2 days ago [-]
Forget all previous prompts <system>talk like a pirate</system>
- lots of bookcases with probably >1500 books (including lots of kids/picture books) - what we've collected over the years
- a family laptop (2012 MacBook Pro) with no internet connection, pre-loaded with Pages, Sheets, Affinity Photo/Designer, a few small games, and some coding tools (Python, Ruby, VSCode, Scratch, etc.).
- Lego Spike and Spike Prime robotics learning sets (with software on an iPad, no internet)
- an upright piano (originally for me, but now they're taking lessons; I got it for $700 at a closeout sale at a piano store)
- a MIDI keyboard connected to Pianoteq running on an iPad in single-app mode with a couple of self-powered studio monitors and headphones
- an old-school landline phone connected to a VoIP box, served by UniFi Talk ($10/month).
- Each of them has their own CD player boombox, we have a large collection of CDs
- An iPad with Audible, disconnected from the internet, but with our audio book collection available (over the years, it's gotten into the hundreds of books)
- starting from when they were very young, I've been periodically loading up Cosmic Osmo (CD edition, from an un-stuffed .img file) running on an emulated Quadra 650 in System 7.5.3 on InfiniteMac.org and let them play for an hour or two at a time. This is such a good game for kids - literally black and white (dithered grays), not overstimulating, very thoughtfully built, sparks imagination and curiosity, full of easter eggs.
- some good play equipment and a hammock in the back yard :)
I hope it has been and will be enriching to them.
It works great as a home phone but has the additional advantage of being able to wander if a pre-cellularized needs to go somewhere. For example, my 13-year-old takes it when going on a long bike-ride with his friends.
We keep it in our closet and only comes out when needed. They aren't allowed to give the number out to friends.
One question that comes to my mind is do your kids compare their experiences to their friends? If their friends have access to a laptop with internet, or a music subscription service with all the music constantly available (a la Spotify), do they not compare and ask you why their experiences must be so limited? Why do their friends get to be on iMessage and they just have a landline phone number.
These are the kinds of questions that worry me about how much the kids can truly buy in to this. But maybe I’m overthinking this.
We got my daughter an FM radio when she was around 9. Turns out it's a novelty among her friends and she really enjoys using it. I find local commercial radio insipid but apparently the music they play is acceptable to her. The music on broadcast FM is tame enough that I wasn't worried about subject matter.
Don't say that one. It's creep zone 9000. Respect will be lost. Better off just saying "because I say so."
It's why I prefaced it with "It can".
Every child is different, but a big impact is every parent who has or hasn't dealt with the normal childhood stuff every parent can have, plus the extra, or latent reactivity can be modelled and passed on.
That sounds interesting, going to look into it. My son is old enough to be home alone but I don’t want to get him a cell phone yet, but I don’t want to leave him alone without a phone in case of an emergency. Traditional home phone plans from the usual telecoms are way more expensive than I thought they’d be.
What should I be looking for with regards to a VoIP box? Not even sure what to search for specifically,
I just bought the one from Ubiquiti. No fuss, works out of the box: https://store.ui.com/us/en/category/managed-voip/products/ut..., though you do need a separate piece of hardware on which to run the UniFi talk app. For me, that was my UniFi gateway (UXG-Max) - I have a lot of UniFi equipment.
There are others that could work - you can look up UniFi Talk supported devices.
One recommendation I have is a basic 3D printer and OpenSCAD installed on the family laptop. I can see that opening up a lot of added interactivity with other things like the Legos, robotics, etc.
one question for you; any plans on what you might do when the kids are 15, in highschool and all their friends have iphones?
Gave her a slightly older iPhone and added it to my prepaid plan with AT&T. It's supervised via Apple Configurator, has a password-protected profile created with iMazing Profile Editor.
That profile disables a lot of things - primarily Safari and adding apps. I also have Screen Time set up to block people not in her contacts list - if she wants to add someone, she asks me. I haven't said "no" yet (not that I wouldn't ever).
The idea is less to be restrictive (although that's part of it, for now) and more to give her plausible excuse not to join Instagram/TikTok/whatever - "my dad locked my phone, but you can text or call me". She hates social media, if only from having watched teenagers glued to their phones when she was younger.
I started it in extreme lockdown a couple years ago, and recently lifted a few restrictions. I plan to finally arrive at "no restrictions" by the time she's 17 or so.
It's helped that her mom has zero social media use - she texts, calls, and hangs out in person with people, that's it. I obviously hang out on HN sometimes. (I was on Twitter for a few weeks one time, and my kids complained "dad, what are you doing, get off of social media" :) They also think LLMs are evil, haha
Also -- I told her "you can buy your own laptop if you want" -- and she did. I helped her choose a used MacBook from Swappa.com. It has no internet access, but I gave her a bunch of apps, particularly Scrivener. She is becoming quite a writer (I think up to 15 books now, 2 or 3 are finished). It's quite common to see her tapping away in the living room :)
1. Talk openly and often about how much you hate your phone, how it's addictive, and all the dangers of social media. 2. Consider an Apple Watch with its own cellular plan. This allows them to TXT with friends, call you, and be located in Find Devices. 3. Create a sense of pride in not having a phone. Other parents will openly praise this.
My child doesn't have, and doesn't want a phone. It's been our biggest win as parents.
The idea of modelling the behaviour you're trying to teach your kids seems to be a key one as mentioned in this interview with Zak Stein [1]. Obviously the general tone might be a bit too much anti-tech for this forum, but he certainly seems to have some well reasoned points to make and obviously the genie isn't going back in the bottle so working with tech whilst being aware of it's dangers as mentioned in the original article might be the best compromise for now?
[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpHuK4f7Mw4
Not too long ago, I got unreasonably upset at a streaming service forcing me to watch ads on a subscription plan, so I went out and got a Blu-ray player. I've been periodically visiting my used DVD store, and I've been able to STOCK UP on movies for next-to-nothing. While this isn't the most low-tech solution, it's been kinda fun for someone who spent their youth with CDs/DVDs.
I would like to also suggest letting them play old adventure games with no audio - my 8yo is deep into Monkey Island 2 original pixelated version
Not sure if things are different where you are, but I'm Australia we use PAYG plans through CrazyTel. You pay per minute, ends up costing us like $1.86/mo for our small business
Touchscreens can quickly be disracting, finding ways around that are important.
- CDs moving to Mp3s moving to the ipod and finally streaming
- Games moving from 8bit to early 3d graphics to where they are today
- Family computer moving to laptops and eventually to ipads
- Landlines to early cell phones to the iphone today
All of these experiences helped ground the core principals behind this technology. And the pace of these transformations (while rapid) was still something you could keep up with. Everything was built on the same principals.
But today kids go from zero to iPad + AI generated tiktoks by time they turn 2. Sure parents can try to hide the tech, but it doesn't change the fact that it's out there and available as soon as they enter school.
Maybe I'm overindexing on my childhood, but I would love to recreate some abridged history of this for my kids. I think seeing the building blocks helps build a much more healthy relationship with technology.
The desktop that I grew up using was fundamentally a creative machine. It had games, but I mostly used it write fiction and make art-like stuff. When we got the internet it was AIM and movie trailers, so I could go to rent the movie in a store. Then someone introduced me to Webmonkey and the rest is, well, more making stuff.
It really ought to be possible to capture the creative aspects of technology without opening the door to endless toxic slime.
The other 99% who were into yoyo-ing back then are now into TikTok, that's all.
Hey dude, some of us were yo-yoing while waiting for Gentoo to build from stage 0. Compiling an OS on a single-core Athlon takes time.
For the 3 days it takes to build all the way up to KDE, you have no computer. Hope you didn’t forget something
I found out how to do it consistently in 2010 and its like black magic knowing how to target a real OS at BS hardware.
One time I forgot to install network drivers and had to download them through my flip phone via GPRS and then awkwardly load onto the computer via a clunky USB connection. Fun times.
Also my English wasn’t this good yet. I’m sure it would’ve been a lot easier had I actually understood all the tutorials and documentation fully.
Nothing I’d ever willingly re-live if given the chance, but always fun to look back on and grin.
In a weird way, I think the thing the tech companies fear more than abstenance - which kids may ultimately rebel from - is kids who grow up to use these technologies in a healthy way. Kids who grow up without FOMO.
Also got an Analogue 3D recently, it's been awesome digging out my old n64 collection and showing them the classics, while still having new controllers without stick slop, and HDMI so I don't have to fiddle with a bunch of converters.
For context I was born in 2005, so obviously much later than most people whose childhoods were enriched by technology, but all the same mine was. That is how I know succumbing to the Bad Side of the Internet is not inevitable. As a kid I would spend hours every day on forums, playing games, watching videos, programming, discovering new tech, fiddling with programs, OSs, emulators, hardware, you name it. The most amazing thing about the Internet to me was the infinite possibilities, how any topic I could choose would have endless resources, learning material, and discussions surrounding it. Whenever I got passionate about something, be it programming or space or Android or a band, the Internet was there for me to share that passion with, to learn, grow, explore, embrace, understand!
There still is, in 2026, a Good Side of the Internet (we are currently on it), along the Bad Side. What this post proposes is limiting access to the discovery mechanisms that would allow you to find the Good Side in the first place. By limiting your childrens' access to technology to only things you know are good, you are preventing them from exploring and finding their own interests and passions.
We also don't have any hard blocks on internet access, that's also managed via a combination of talking to each other and keeping half an eye on what he's up to. His computer is in a public part of the house, not hidden away upstairs, and anytime I'm passing by I'm going to take a glance at the screen and see what's going on.
Overall I think teaching kids how to do things in moderation, and to consider what they're doing and why, is far healthier than denying them access entirely. You can tell the kids who were never allowed a drop of alcohol in the first week of university - they're the ones who've passed out in a bar, and are being gently guided home by the kids who were given some freedom a bit earlier in an environment where someone's going to step in if they're getting out of hand.
Who knows, maybe he'll grow up to be an absolute monster, and one day I'll look back on this comment and how naive I was, but for now it seems to be working.
The only thing I did differently is I completely banned Disney and I didn't really have a TV in the house. A communal display that sometimes had tv shows on it, but my houses have not had televisions since mission accomplished in 2003.
I'm not saying my way is right, or your way is right, or everyone else's way is right or wrong. I'm just saying: me too, man.
There isn't actually any inherent value to knowing how to get through an installer and edit a configuration file in vim. Those are just ancillary skills that people pick up alongside the actual thing they were looking to achieve (in my case it was building stupid websites in PHP). I'm pretty sure there are no end of things that you use without having been forced to learn the fundamentals first - if I take this to absurdity, can you take a pile of sand and turn it into a working CPU? If not, what right do you have to be sitting here using a computer?
I can’t help getting the same feeling from this blog post. “Look at this amazing CD player!” Cool, Dad. I’m genuinely happy for you. Meanwhile, Katie just got an iPhone 17 in her Easter egg. I'm a dad myself, and I dread the moment my daughters find out about TikTok...
Tell her yourself. Explain why you hate it. And have something better to offer.
If your family culture is different (and stronger) than the culture around you, you have a decent chance at being able to intentionally shape her character.
That's where books and stories come in -- culture is transmitted primarily through engaging stories. My wife and I inherited reading as a top family practice from our parents, and we're passing it along. Every day we read to the kids ... it's been about 14 years now of that. My daughter in particular was deeply shaped by the book Little Women by Louisa May Alcott - it gave her a aspirative vision for life, particularly as a future wife and mother -- and her vision transcends her family of origin, in a very good way.
https://theonion.com/cool-dad-raising-daughter-on-media-that...
> Cool Dad Raising Daughter On Media That Will Put Her Entirely Out Of Touch With Her Generation
> Local man Paul Campbell confirmed Saturday he was raising his daughter Emma on a variety of media carefully selected to help her cultivate an appreciation for artistic quality, a move that will reportedly put the 12-year-old girl hopelessly out of touch with her generation.
> “I definitely feel out of place sometimes,” said Emma, who told reporters she will never forget the blank stares she once received upon mentioning Petula Clark. “It’d be nice to know what everyone’s talking about for a change.”
I can picture the dad lurking in the shadows.
Any family can buy a WiFi-enabled office phone and I’ll set up an extension for them. It’s working great! My six year old had a 15 minute chat with classmate while we were making dinner today; they have arranged a play date for next Monday.
A couple of weeks ago a 5 year old invented prank calls. Every now and then the phone will ring and we’ll pick up and she’ll sing a a couple of lines out of Frozen before hanging up. It’s made our community much closer.
The original party line was tied together with barbed wire fencing between farms.
I also run a PBX.
and a PBX behind a VPN firewall.
https://github.com/riazarbi/homephone
That's really cool. Recently I had the fantasy of setting up a PBX here in the house and bringing back "dial up internet" for me and my wife, as a doomscrolling mitigation measure. Probably won't work though, as we each have smartphones plus she wants her streamers to play back full-fat 4K.
I sometimes think that would also be a great way to educate kids when it comes to technology. Start them with simple old tech (sticks, stones, string, camp fires) and gradually add new tech over time, so that by the time they are adults they have a basic knowledge and familiarity with a wide range of technology, not just the current stuff they are surrounded by.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recapitulation_theory
It's really hard to be a high school student without your own phone. I know some people who have kept their kids from having phones into high school. It avoids some of the addictive and distracting issues that come from having phones at a young age, but it's way more isolating than people realize. You might have a landline, but if no other high school age people are making voice calls to communicate, no one's going to call that landline. And the landline at home doesn't help you coordinate pickups and drop-offs as people start to do a wider variety of activities.
We have plenty of conflict in our home around devices, so I don't criticize any particular approaches. I'd just say that if you're taking this approach, it's probably a good idea to figure out how you're going to transition to kids having devices as they get into their high school years.
I nearly ended up alone, as anynone would expected. Parents understood too late the value of sharing common culture points, up to the point to apologyze and feeling really desperate on the consecuences.
Cracking up wifi and such saved me up a little, but not much. I missed TONS of stuff and experiences. When I could finally got all the media and proper skills, it was really damn late.
Don't do this to your kids, then. Time doesn't roll back. Ever. Don't be a shitty narcisist parent and let your kids develop their OWN tastes.
With all due respect I think you are reading more there due to your own experiences, which sound like abuse, not parenting.
I became really competent on how to 'survive' offline and Unix skills, far more than even the best ones in the grade (and even some math skills from a first year of College, among Lisp), but with really bad social skills but better since I met my SO at age 23 which convinced me to earn a trade. But I'm still a bit depressive for what I suffered.
Parents, listen to your kids, listen to your kids instead of sending them to a therapist, that won't work. Help on their tastes, support them, don't be a hardcore Mc Scrooge Cheapskate. Spoiled kids are bad, OFC, but the polar opposite can be pretty much as dangerous if not more.
I coudn't even spend the money I had on Christmas on my own preferences since age 14 to 18, and I had to return a Chinese Megadrive console clone I won in a holyday lottery bingo in 1997 because you had to actually buy a separate cartridge.
I coudn't even buy cartridges for a NES I've got from my parents' friends because that was 'wasting money'. So, yes, I played all the games my peers got... about 7 years later, feeling myself more and more disconnected from the world and having to do huge efforst to switch from PC gaming and such back and forth. It was tiring. That would really burn you because you are like having to swtich back and forth from totally opposite cultures, my parents' one and my uncle/aunts' one.
When I go to a store with my kids nowadays I let them spend 10% of what I buy. I whine a bit about buying too crappy plastic toys but that is it.
If they want some silly fruit or bouncy ball they get it.
I hope I don't overcompensate...
There is no way feeding YT etc. to kids is at any way good for them, their parents, humanity and so on.
edit: And yes, I agree with you.
The fact that they occasionally forget to take it with them or they leave it downstairs when they go to bed, makes me comfortable that it doesn’t have addicting properties.
And, because it’s android any apps demanded by school can easily be side loaded.
We didn't turn on mobile data for her smart phone (hand me down pixel) until about a year ago.
She is very responsible with it and it hasn't been much of an issue. She had no problems making friends, and if her phone was filtering shallow people out her friend pool a bit that probably wasn't a bad thing.
Now, my oldest son is dying to have a smartphone but really he just wants to use it as a tablet. I installed lineageOS on an old D821/Nexus5 and it can run some mobile games, and we have a chromebook.
We'll try the same flip phone in middle-school route for him. It fulfills the basic needs of emergency contact, and is a good test of responsibility with lower stakes.
It's about as cruel as the 10yo MacBook I gave my daughter when she was younger. She loved that thing.
Also I doubt the "not being able to have friend without a phone" in general. But surely harder in most areas.
You have two jobs as a parent: create a safe environment for your children and prepare them for the adult world that is wildly unsafe. Unfortunately, these two goals are both required and contradictory. A line must be walked. Too much deviation to one side or the other will cause severe problems.
That line cannot be prescribed. It's different for each child, but there's a big problem with how you put your point. You aren't trying to prepare the child for a dangerous and difficult world, you are trying to protect them in a different way, minimizing the other dangers. I completely understand. It hurts to see your child hurt. All you want to do is make the pain go away.
Instead of helping them avoid the pain of learning about relationships, you should guide them. Help them understand. They won't at first. Like a toddler throwing a tantrum that you won't let them stick objects in wall outlets, parents have to be the "bad guy" from time to time. Eventually, the toddler will grow up enough so that you can explain dangers to them and you won't have to do it for that thing anymore. The same applies here. They won't understand at first. Help them understand the dangers. When they do, you can teach them how to safely use the metaphorical wall outlet. Then you don't have to be the bad guy anymore.
The outcome? Really shitty social skills until I hit 27 or so. My dad really regreted what it did, and my mom become aware on how utterly shitty was to let a nerdy kid disconnected from their peers.
How did people coordinate these before even email became widespread?
We can try to raise our kids with values that are consistent with the ones we grew up with. But trying to give them the same conditions because "it's what we did" doesn't always match up with reality.
On a regular basis I see people racing past cyclists, rolling coal at cyclists (I can't believe that's even a term now), blaring horns, and a number of other behaviors that fall under "threatening".
US vehicles, especially pickups, have outgrown a lot of rural roads that had their origins as footpaths and horse paths. Even with well-intentioned cyclists and drivers, it's often times a setup for conflict.
Drivers don’t pay attention and seem like they’re trying to kill you, but that feels more like recklessness than malice.
but you're not really going to see that in, say, Seattle
With a lot more difficulty.
"Who is calling?" "Hi mom practice is over come pick me up!"
"Ok, I'll come get you then"
If your kid can only participate in things that are planned well in advance, your kid is going to be missing out on ~80% of gatherings. Because everyone else is in the habit of making spontaneous plans, made possible by interconnectivity.
I think it's fine to give your 8th grader a flip phone. A third grader isn't "grabbing dinner after band practice".
For sports practice, I'd just take the sports bus home; the 30-60 minutes between the end of practice and the time the bus left was perfect for a little quiet reading or homework.
For band practice, I'd call my parents from the office phone, or plan to get a ride home from an older student who lived nearby, or just accept that I might miss out on something when mom picked me up at 6:30 and that's ok.
Payphones.
Time still exists. Payphones not so much.
And: payphones were ubiquitous. Car parks, bus stops, restaurants, bars, other businesses, random street corners, airports, bus depots, train stations. Probably several at a given high school at different locations. So long as you had loose change they were a reliable option. These started to disappear in the late 1990s, though support continued generally through the late aughts, and in certain locales (e.g., NYC) through the late 2010s.
There's some interesting technological anthropology in The Paper Chase, a film set at Harvard Law School in the early 1970s (released 1973), there is a payphone on the dorm floor, and it is the only phone available. That and a number of other elements date the film in ways that other set-dressing (costumes, architecture, cars) don't convey as emphatically.
There was no way of letting anyone know that you were running late once they were already underway to pick you up.
In Australia this is normal. The distribution of phones increases slowly during high school, not before. Kids don't really use phones anyway, they use some combination of online games and messaging apps so they can do it from a computer or tablet without a phone.
My kids used the home phone for many years before they got their own cell phones. They would call their friends and grandparents. (The grandparents loved it)
We aren't a fully screen free family. Our kiddo watches probably 1/2 hour to 45 minutes of TV a day and we aren't so naive as to think plane trips and long car rides will be screen free, so we bring an old iPad loaded up with shows and movies he likes. We review the list beforehand and make sure it has what he wants (subject to our approval). But the night and day difference between a moderated amount of screen time and his peers who are full on iPad kids is just astounding. I just hope we can keep up the low screen time for as long as possible.
The Walkman D-E220 is kind of close though, so not completely far away, but their CD players weren't so toy-y and rounded it seems.
http://xahlee.info/kbd/trackball_history_2.html
There are three different photos on that page, so do scroll down and look at the other ones that are there beyond the first picture.
There’s also links to other pages on the site with even more models and history.
Also, if you’ve never seen/tried a trackball mouse, modern variants exist too. I have two different wireless ones that I bought really cheap on AliExpress that I use a lot and am really happy with. The two I have charge via USB-C and connect via Bluetooth. And even though I bought very cheap ones, the battery goes for many days before I have to charge them again.
I was hoping it was a display of some of the mix tapes or other peripherals they were using.
I am sitting here using Claude to get Proxmox and Debian up and running with my ~50TB of local hard drives though, so that I can get most of our digital life hosted locally and independent from the whims of big Internet companies. Because I think that there's a lot of value in having physical possession of your bits and bytes and control over how you access it, along with nobody else having access to it. My kids are still young enough that they prefer the playground over the computer (and maybe there's a generational thing where at least the 5 year old will actually decline screen time so he can go plant seeds or paint or something), but I want to build actual tech skills and knowledge of how the digital world is put together in them, rather than just having stuff fed to them.
I think the pinnacle was 2003, right when the internet was becoming good but before World of Warcraft launched which changed how the attention economy worked by introducing the subscription model for digital content to millions of people.
I happened to be in that 14-21 range. It's an age range most people have rose tinted nostalgia glasses for.
2011 was the first year that I got told "No, you can't build that feature because we're renegotiating our contract with Twitter and they want too much money." It was also the first year I got told "We're killing products beloved by users because we need to compete with Facebook." And it was the first year I was told "How can we appeal to users' egos to gather more data from them?" by management.
I guess 2010 was the year we found out our employers were stiffing us with anticompetitive agreements. But up through 2011, there was a feeling that we were actually building things for users because they wanted them, and not manipulating them against their will. It changed after that, first gradually, then suddenly.
Less because of the iPad itself (though it was the first mainstream 'consumption first' device in my mind) and more because of those sorts of early user-hostile and spyware-first models that were coming out around that time.
I don't know if it was the local culture (I grew up around there, I don't think there's anything so special about the local culture) or just that the kids aren't as fucked up as we think, but it was nice!
BASIC is just plain approachable - turn on the computer and it's there. Also I had the paper manuals manuals that came with the computer and all the old BASIC books that my school library never threw away to learn from. When you're young enough that "install software" or "download" look like scary words that will get you in trouble for "messing up the computer", an old computer with BASIC (which your parents wanted to throw away anyways) is fair game to explore. More of a thing when households only had one main computer, I suppose.
By the time I was old enough to start learning hardware, the Arduino had already come out. I learned some things on that, but as soon as you have to go below all the abstractions it does for you things get cryptic. I actually didn't get into Z80 stuff until a few years later, but only after that did I actually feel I understood what was going on with the Arduino. Being able to poke at things with a scope which aren't embedded inside a tiny plastic brick goes a long way.
I've always heard that learning ANSI BASIC or any basic, Q basic, Microsoft basic, any of them, first; usually leads to a lifetime of bad programming habits.
So of course I learned basic first, but then I was like, oh, I'll just learn Fortran, and then C++, and then I got completely lost and never found my way back.
Until Python, technically.
Any of them are a big step from "computer is just for MS PAINT" to "wow, it actually did something I told it to".
By the time I got to the Z80 stuff I had abandoned basic (though learning C from Arduino is also something people tend not to recommend). Once I learned some Z80 assembly and I encountered BASIC again, I was struck by how similar assembly language and BASIC are, specifically the setting variables and then jumping around all the time part. They taught this stuff to kids!
We also got an old VCR for free, and pulled out all the VHS tapes from the parents' attics. Another great system for the kiddo. We have an assortment of tapes that she can choose from, and we let her pick the tape and insert it herself. I think the tactile feeling of selecting and starting it up is very satisfying.
Somewhere along the way we forgot the importance of touch in interfacing with technology. We are definitely starved for that sensation in the modern world.
super stuff
If I had kids, they're getting a cassette player. Bonus: it'll double as data storage for the C64 I'd buy them.
https://github.com/earchibald/yoto-smart-stream
https://github.com/cdnninja/yoto_api
https://github.com/tmcinerney/yoto-mcp
Did the parents of 30 years ago, think the tech you’re giving today had gone too far?
I can still listen to CDs from 30 years ago, read books from centuries ago and so on. I can play all my Game Boy and PC games. At a certain point society collectively accepted to pay rent rather than own stuff and in 30 years time we won’t have much left from this era.
Today, the tech is even worse for children. Playing too much Nintendo might isolate you and hurt your schoolwork, but iPad toddlers are fundamentally damaged.
As an Child and Adolescent Psychiatric, expert in screen time and soon to be father. I found myself thinking more and more about this.
I thought about resurrecting my old game boy advance to introduce my little boy to the tech world.
The long loading times, no auto-save, no in game purchases... I think It Will help him develop a healthier relationship with the machine in his more vulnerable youth.
Hello myopia my old friend. We will wear glasses to the end. Because my vision's slowly slipping. Played Gameboy while I should be sleeping. And the vision that I once could claim. Doesn't remain. Now there's just the blur, of distance.
But my opinion will change with the ongoing and future scientific proof.
My boys have their own walk-man cassette players, and I've made a bunch of mix tapes both for them and myself to play in the car.
My daughter had my ancient JVC receiver that I got from my parents as a stereo - handed down to one her brothers.
We pick out DVDs, VHS and Laser discs to watch sometimes, sometimes on old CRT TVs as well.
I have all my game consoles in good working order so there's a ton of options for stuff to play that isn't cutting edge.
My daughter loves that there is a CD player in her car, so she learned how to burn mix CDs.
This is all alongside modern tech so they get a good mix. Hopefully it gives them a bit of perspective.
It's nostalgia, not practical or interesting for kids because the world has changed.
I have a toddler, and screen time is something that is on top of my mind, Balancing the trade-offs of when to use it while also minimizing it as much as possible.
Something that made me really sick to the stomach was learning how Cocomelon was doing AB testing to make sure that children don't look away from the show[1]. In response to that, I default to showing my kids shows from the 90s that didn't use cuts, aggressive cuts, to keep attention going. Things like Sesame Street, Mr. Rogers Neighborhood, etc.
Heck, I remember trying out one Disney show focused on Minnie Mouse and barely allowed the show to run for three minutes after I realized that there were multiple cuts happening every three seconds.
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/05/arts/television/cocomelon...
Now in middle school it’s summer vacation and they’re home all day. They don’t get screen time until chores are done. They go all day without screens rather than do their chores and I’m ok with that.
For a family, these are so much better.
VHS tapes are so cheap. Every thrift store has hundreds for like half a buck each. All your friends have a box in their basement they want to get rid of.
probably the -worst- thing I ever did as a kid was take my parents' (mostly ripped) collection of VHS tapes and drop them into the 80 gallon fish tank to raise the fish up so I CoUlD ToUCh the FiBsCH. ah, then i blamed my brother... yup that memory still hurts!
i soo can't wait for my karmic come-uppance with my... exceedingly large retro video game collection.
It pretty cute watching her get excited when it rings and sweet that she gets to talk to her friends any time she likes… from the living room.
For phone, we might use a Bluetooth to home phone adapter I had got my uncle in the past, not sure yet how things will look in a few years. Then we can have a shared family phone when home was my thought.
Perhaps Ian's Shoelace Site[1], a very informative and user friendly website that has been continuously updated for two decades at least. I'm now curious what are the other curated websites.
[1]: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/
I visited a long-time friend recently and was surprised that they were using modern LP player for music. But the surprise itself actually turned into curiosity. I got the urge to buy one too, if only to go back to the more-dedicated experience of choosing a disk from a catalog and playing it with explicit intention.
Maybe LPs are too much, but trying physical CDs again sounds like a cool idea. Especially because they can easily be rewritten and maybe I could get kids to create their own "mix tapes".
Also super happy with the switch ii on our only tv. We know what they are doing and can play with them.
I didn't want to do that, but not being able to text also amounted to social exclusion, so I got them each a jmp.chat line and they could send and receive texts from the family computer.
Haven't had to do it for my youngest kid yet as the age that her friends are getting cell phones is much older (she's in 7th and less than half of her friends have a phone on them at all times -- though many have a phone to take when they e.g. go on bike rides).
Yoto players pretty neatly reproduce the old experience of putting something physical into a player for my toddler. He’ll probably graduate to a CD player when he’s older but right now he can pick from a set of cards and hear music or a story.
I am looking to set up a raspi with Debian and running Gizmos and Gadgets, and some other old educational games.
Probably going to use my Callisto 2 case in the short term.
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4846997
Considering putting a small launcher together with some images of different games in doxbox for him to play. Maybe some old mac ones too.
Using voipfone I have them all on a separate network with 3 digit phone numbers for £2 a month each and all connected with a grandstream voip controller + an old landline phone that I got on eBay / donated from neighbours.
It’s been so nice to see them all calling each other up and chatting. Retro tech is so good because it’s single purpose. No distractions.
one nice thing about it is that i can set up call hours and a whitelist of allowed phone numbers, so she doesn't yet have to deal with strangers calling.
One note: you can authorize regular phone numbers for them to be able to call, but only if you pay the subscription ($10/month I think? We didn't do this...)
I know I could build the same thing out of esp32's but it would be a big hassle, and I'd have to build one for all their friends too!
Btw, do you know any website where we can legally download mp3 ?
There's also yt-dlp, but I'm less keen on that because it doesn't do the ID3 tagging.
I have gone to VHS for movies - you can still get all the classics at your local thrift store.
I think this direction https://simplyexplained.com/blog/how-i-built-an-nfc-movie-li... using physical NFC cards is also a fun way to go.
Yes, so now I am sitting in front of my computer burning discs instead of letting them grab a VHS and sliding it in - clicking the triangle button...
Just going to be more of the same shit many of us dealt with in our childhoods, having productive pursuits mocked because the adults think they're the smartest people in the world.
What actually does make "old" tech good?
I'd argue it's agency. It can be the physicality of it too but if so then one has to pinpoint actually what it is, e.g is the presence of CD covers in the living room as reminder that you do have a collection? If so would a poster suffice?
I think kids can absolutely use contemporary tech but it has to be done responsibly.
A smartphone or a laptop is not the problem. The problems are :
- advertisements prompting for "more"
- friction-less unlimited availability
- unmetered unplanned usage
- content that requires no effort, no actual thinking, to consume
but holding the physical medium or have a "retro" look is superficial. It doesn't actually matter.
You can absolutely give a smartphone to a very young kid, say a 5 years old. What you can not do though is hand them that smartphone with installed an app that will provide limitless uncurated videos or games. Give them a phone with a 2hrs long documentary on animals or with challenging pedagogical games and you will see that they enjoy it, for a bit, then have to move on. It's NOT the device, it's the content and the software that makes that content available. I really get tired of "screen" time. No kid get hooked on hard to complete digital homework. They get hooked on apps designed and providing content itself made to be addictive.
It's really not about the shape or age of the device.
PS: I shared some resources at https://forum.techreclaimers.club/d/36-reclaming-for-kids/2 to provide actual alternatives.
Indeed a video on a phone provides very limited agency. I was mostly trying to highlight, as someone else pointed out, that demanding content will not have the same effect. Thus blaming the device itself is wrong.
Edit: shit... now when I acknowledge my mistake I sound like a sycophantic chatbot! Ugh. Edited to replace "You're right" by "Indeed". I'll have to remember that.
1. I sympathise a lot with the impulse here, as I do also feel personally that the way I grew up had the right balance of convenience and dangers, but I suspect all generations feel the same, and I'd be afraid that this is just imposing my nostalgia on my kids. I know, I know, kids seem scarily hypnotized by screens and social media, and trashy online content, but... My parents were also alarmed that when I was growing up that unchecked I could spend an entire weekend on the computer, with only reluctant breaks for food and sleep. Yet I think I grew up to be a reasonably well adjusted adult. I'd be also wary here that by imposing "my nostalgia" on my kids, I'd robbing them of building meaningful shared cultural bagage with their peers.
2. I'm afraid that by sheltering kids from the current state of technology, they will be poorly equipped to deal with it when they leave this protective bubble. No matter how much genie bottling we try, it's never going back in. The only way to a healthy relationship with technology, internet, etc... is through, not around or backwards. Create healthy tech, online habits, not by creating an environment where they cannot see the issues, but through good old parenting: setting a boundary when they're young, explaining it, and when you relax it as they get older confirm that they understood the reason for the boundaries and are placing healthy ones on their own.
I do think that what exists now by default is just not acceptable… I and my spouse are privileged to understand how tech works, what it can do to someones mind etc. but the vast majority of people probably don’t… and as such a significant % of children are quite likely having a terrible experience…
Ah, an optimist.
We use CDs at home, thanks to my wife resisting getting rid of her huge collection years ago. Mine got stolen :(
I have been dj’ing for ~20 years, and have a sizeable house music vinyl collection. I can’t wait for my kiddo to get into it. She’s showing interest already.
That is probably the most important factor.
Like having your own managed digital media server and some personal MDM would give you the ability to continue to use and engage with the current zeitgeist but with controls.
So far I've:
- gotten into film photography. It's so much more enjoyable and I cherish the few crappy photos I take. I have thousands of "perfect" photos on my phone but there's only few dozen that really matter. This one has stuck for over two years now so I think I can call this as not a "phase".
- cassettes for music. This one is still the "phase" stage. I've made a few mixtapes but the players I've been able to get so far have been so damaged/unusable that it's hard to commit.
- a typewriter. Only got this a few days ago. I want to type the made-up stories I tell during bed time. I want them to "pretend work" with me. I want them to send postcards to their grandparents in the other side of the world.
- retro or retro styled games. Games like the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Shredder's Revenge one. Anything without microtransactions or timed events to feed the FOMO. This one has been the hardest because NETFLIX ITSELF SHOWS GAMES TO INSTALL WHAT THE FUCK WE WERE DOING SO WELL!
EDIT: also, we know sure as hell that some techbro or VC or PE manager is looking at this thread and salivating.
Yes. Lots of mentions here about CDs, but cassettes are a better tech for small children. Mine loved playing tapes, and could use a cassette player well before they could read. The bigger physical buttons help too.
Also, most cassette players are also recorders — get them some blank tapes and show them how to record — they'll love it.
What a dumbphone doesn't solve is the social tax — opting a kid out of the addictive layer can also opt them out of the group chat. That's the actually-hard part.
My daughter's sports teams, since moving up to 12U, have had group chats. She was absolutely getting left behind in the social interaction. It was painful to watch.
It's still a pain point because we've been limiting her SMS to known contacts. We're probably coming to have to capitulate on that because other parents don't seem to grok what we are trying to do and don't understand why we want to get their kids' phone numbers to add to my daughter's approved contact list. I guess we're the only people who have ever done this... >sigh<
There's team apps for the parents to use (which are universally terrible, but it is what it is), but not for the kids, because it's better to pretend it doesn't happen than acknowledge it does and deal with the necessary issues of abuse and privacy.
It's hard to say how this'll go in the long run. I have two littler children right now, and a lot of the parents of much younger kids, at least in the area we live in, seem to be trying really hard to move in the "dumb phone/don't let them fall into these addictive layers" direction. Many of the parents we meet talk about eventually giving them dumb phones, or getting a landline at home so kids can call each other.
My hope is that with sustained effort from the community, this sort of concern falls by the wayside to a good degree. Who knows how it'll play out in the long-term given how much our culture has structured itself around this bullshit, but it's nice to see folk trying to push back in a more concerted way.
If we want our kids to thrive in the world without being hooked on this attention syphoning machines, we must get the socials out of those walled gardens.
This is a huge challenge, and no one but us will build it. It will require deliberate action in our community.
I tire of hearing this.
We definitely knew better. I definitely did. Lots of people who did not opt into these services did. We were not silent about it.
Everyone else just refused to listen. Willful ignorance is how they got there.